Evidence of meeting #44 for Natural Resources in the 41st Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was north.

A recording is available from Parliament.

On the agenda

MPs speaking

Also speaking

Ginger MacDonald  Adjunct Professor, Norman B. Keevil Institute of Mining Engineering, University of British Columbia, As an Individual
Peter Taptuna  Minister of Economic Development and Transportation, Government of Nunavut
Michael Miltenberger  Minister of Environment and Natural Resources, Government of the Northwest Territories
Robert Long  Deputy Minister, Department of Economic Development and Transportation, Government of Nunavut

8:45 a.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Leon Benoit

Good morning, everyone.

We're here to continue our study on resource development in northern Canada. We have with us today three groups of witnesses. As an individual we have Ginger Gibson MacDonald, adjunct professor, Norman B. Keevil Institute of Mining Engineering, University of British Columbia; and from the Government of Nunavut, we have the Honourable Peter Taptuna, Minister of Economic Development and Transportation, and Robert Long, Deputy Minister of Economic Development and Transportation.

Welcome.

Finally, by video conference from Yellowknife, Northwest Territories, from the Government of the Northwest Territories we have the Honourable Michael Miltenberger, Minister of Environment and Natural Resources.

Welcome to you, Minister.

We'll have the presentations in the order listed on the agenda, starting with Ginger Gibson MacDonald from the University of British Columbia. Go ahead, please, with your presentation of up to ten minutes.

8:45 a.m.

Dr. Ginger MacDonald Adjunct Professor, Norman B. Keevil Institute of Mining Engineering, University of British Columbia, As an Individual

Thank you.

I'd like to acknowledge the aboriginal custodians and owners of the land where we speak today.

Thank you for asking me to present to you today. I am honoured to do so.

In looking at this question that the committee is facing on resource extraction, the question I ask is, how can we extract minerals and metals in a way that supports a strong and independent north? In thinking about socio-economic issues, which is the topic you asked us to reflect on, I've reflected on what it takes to use the extractive economy to retain, build, and in some cases rebuild resilient northern families, communities, and culture groups.

I am going to tell you a little bit about myself so you have some context for my comments. My background is in mining engineering. I have a PhD in mining engineering, but my background is in social sciences. I have a master's degree and an undergraduate degree in social science, and I work for aboriginal governments.

I generally work in the north, and I generally work across and around the table with senior and junior mining companies, such as De Beers, Rio Tinto, and BHP Billiton. I've worked and lived in northern communities. My PhD is from working in the diamond mines in the Northwest Territories. I work primarily for one aboriginal government, the Tlicho government, which governs an area that is about the size of New Brunswick.

On the question of how we can extract metals and minerals in a way that supports a strong and independent north—in other words, how can natural resources be harnessed to northern social, economic, and rural well-being—I have five themes I want to reflect on this morning.

The first two themes are captured by the phrase of the late Dene chief Jimmy Bruneau, who said that Tlicho people need to be strong like two people. Let me tell you what I mean by that. First of all, it's rewarding the loyal northern workforce and allowing them to become who they might be—a miner, for example, and strong, like the non-aboriginal person.

The national AFN chief, Shawn Atleo, recently said that the government cannot afford to alienate a major source of labour who live on top of Canada's ample natural resources. The northern aboriginal population, and the aboriginal population in particular, could fill as many as 400,000 of the one million jobs that are expected to be vacant in Canada by 2025.

In the north we see higher incomes and lower levels of income support due to the extractive economy, mining in particular. No one questions the benefits that have been accrued; they're well celebrated in the north.

We also see high levels of income inequality that come with the higher incomes. The higher incomes are not necessarily shared in the same way that we see country foods being shared, for example. We see increased debt loads and problems in money management in the north. The downsides associated with income creation and the gaps between haves and have-nots rarely have the level of examination that the incomes themselves do.

The aboriginal workforce in the north is filling up to 30% of the jobs in mining. The value of this workforce in the north is that they are loyal. Aboriginal workers are not going to move to other areas. They're not moving to other countries. They're born and bred in the north, and once they're educated they return to the north.

I argue that these people need to be rewarded with education in the areas they want to be educated in, not just haul-truck drivers. They need to be rewarded with training so they can be the apprentices, the journeymen in their communities after the mines are gone. They need to be rewarded with higher recruitment and retention, and with advancement. That's something we haven't seen in the aboriginal population, in the north in particular. We also need to see aboriginal workers being rewarded with workplaces that celebrate their cultural traditions and support their families and communities. It's about loss prevention and stabilizing remote communities.

My second theme is about the other economy that coexists with the resource economy. I argue that we need to maintain treaty obligations by protecting water and animals so that families can continue to eat a renewable resource, which is the country food, and protect their right to be strong like two people, both aboriginal people and non-aboriginal people.

Let me tell you what I mean by this. In the treaties across the country, aboriginal people were promised that they could continue to pursue their way of life. In the north this means that the caribou, as one example, cannot have their habitat degraded to the point that they are unable to persist in the area. Therefore mining and the impacts it can come with, and the associated developments such as roads, cannot impact on the habitat of this key country food species.

Consider that in many parts of the north, up to 70% of households get more than half the food they eat from the land. So they're dependent on caribou, on fish, and on country foods. It's a renewable food source, and it's been there since time immemorial.

Country foods are shared widely in northern indigenous families. They protect elders and vulnerable people from poverty, and they reinforce culture. When people are out there on the land practising their way of life, they're also speaking their language. They have a strong identity, which protects them from all sorts of social ills.

In a nutshell, what I'm talking about is people being able to stay who they are—harvesters connected to the land. At the same time, they're able to be what they might be—miners, income providers, and strong and capable tradespeople. In a nutshell, they become strong like two people, as they're both hunters and miners, aboriginal and non-aboriginal.

The loss of country foods in the north presents a real cost to governments. When communities turn to store-bought food in remote northern communities, there are rarely affordable nutritious options. This often means that people turn to cheap and high-calorie diets, which has led us to our current epidemic of type 2 diabetes, obesity, and other health impacts.

Mining, therefore, and the development that comes with it, cannot impact on the habitat of key country food species.

My third theme is building and repairing housing for these families so that people can be harvesters and miners at the same time. Workers need housing that's reliable, adequate, affordable, and healthy. Right now, in one region where I work, more than 50% of the houses are in need of repair, and 37% of these are reported to need major repairs. More than 50% of these northern homes have more than six people living in them, which means that there are multiple generations housed under one roof. And more than 51% of them are living with mould and mildew.

Housing is tightly linked to health status. Where you have these kinds of conditions, you also have chronic respiratory infections and other debilitating health outcomes.

Almost every mine in the north has a two-on, two-off schedule. That means that people are in the mine for two weeks, away from their families, and back at home for a two-week work shift. It's a great shift for harvesters, because they can be on the land for two weeks. But workers need to be able to leave their families knowing that the plumbing, the lighting, and the heating is all going to work while they're away and that their children are not going to be unsafe while they're away.

In homes where there are addictions issues and where there are multiple generations living under the same roof, people are not always guaranteed the safety of their children when they're away. They cannot have peace of mind at work, and they need it. People ought not to be choosing between a good job and a strong family. A healthy and productive northern workforce is based on families that are well housed there.

Fourth, I've spoken to you about the two economies of the north that coexist: the bush economy, or the harvest economy, and the mining economy. The bush economy is a recognized and strong economy. It's dependent on a strong and able regulatory system, which is currently under attack, in large part due to an obsession with timelines.

The regulatory system in authority in the north has been shown in audits, in peer views, and in internal reviews to be functional and strong. Agency boards and tribunals are put in place there for a good reason. In their absence, there's usually a lawsuit.

Industry itself has created the spectre of timing, and it largely has itself to blame. Many companies are using the public regulatory system to raise funds on the stock market. They boost their stocks by issuing press releases about what moment of the environmental assessment or what stage of regulatory approval they are in. Their appetite is for good news. We notice this particularly for small, junior mining companies. This often sends them into the regulatory system years before they're ready to properly present their projects. They waste our time, and then they complain that they feel held up in the legitimate process that has been designed to promote the public interest.

I'm aware of at least one junior mining company that has been in front of you complaining about aboriginal governments that are incapable of governing themselves. They have been saying that these aboriginal governments are at fault for what they perceive as their being too long in the regulatory system.

I think these companies are equally or more to blame for their cavalier and self-centred abuse of a properly constituted and hard-fought-for environmental assessment system. We spend hundreds of thousands to millions of dollars of public funds to review fictional mines that often, during the assessments themselves, have no concrete proposals for roads or power to bring metals and minerals to the south.

I recommend that you consider this thought in itself: that companies submit proper and adequate descriptions of projects with proper sequencing, so that mines do not precede infrastructure and waste the time of aboriginal governments and regulatory authorities, or worse, lead to the type of ill-planned developments that have pockmarked the north with contaminated sites whose financial legacies fall on the shoulders of all Canadians and whose environmental and socio-cultural legacies fall on the shoulders of the indigenous people whose lands and waters have been contaminated.

My final theme, on what does it take to promote socio-economic development with the extraction of mineral resources, is give northern institutions the time to finish their growth. In reviewing the minutes of previous sessions I see a theme from developers, in particular on the topic of governance. Developers want certainty of land tenure. They need settled claims in the north.

Where there are settled land claims there are also strong and independent governments emerging. Their governance is often unrecognizable to developers because it doesn't look like anything they're used to from the south. In the absence of something they recognize, developers come to Ottawa and label what they see, unkindly, as lack of capacity, lack of sophistication, or lack of acumen. It is anything but.

There are strong and independent forms of governance emerging in the north based in co-management models so that the land and water boards and the renewable resource boards there are growing technical competence and an ability of a generation of young indigenous scientists and young non-aboriginal scientists who are strong like two people. Governments are managing million-dollar budgets with strong technical competence. There are lands departments and evolving land use plans. There are strong indigenous governments passing laws and enacting legislation.

If anything, the north is currently in a state of unfinished governance where the institutions are emergent so we need to carry on with the vision that has been established in the comprehensive land claim agreements, the creation of an integrated system of regulation and management, building systems that are by the north, in the north, and for the north.

I want to thank you and I want to acknowledge my colleagues who are going to be presenting this morning as well, as they are all from these strong independent northern governments.

Thank you for your time.

9 a.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Leon Benoit

Thank you, Dr. MacDonald, for your presentation.

We go now to the Honourable Peter Taptuna from the Government of Nunavut, who is Minister of Economic Development and Transportation.

Please go ahead with your presentation, Minister.

9 a.m.

Peter Taptuna Minister of Economic Development and Transportation, Government of Nunavut

Thank you, Mr. Chairman, and good morning.

On behalf of the Government of Nunavut, I would like to express my appreciation for this opportunity to share our experience with the members of the standing committee.

The map we have distributed shows what most experts and industry observers believe is the potential mining development in Nunavut in this decade. About half a dozen major projects are currently at various stages of environmental review. Of course the largest is the Mary River project, which, if completed, will transform the economy of Nunavut. In addition, there are another half dozen advanced projects. To round out the picture, there are 90 early exploration projects.

Currently, Nunavut’s mining sector represents at least a quarter of our economy. Its rapid growth explains why Nunavut’s economic growth was the highest in Canada for both 2010 and 2011, achieving 11.4% and 7.7%, respectively.

Nunavut ranks fourth in Canada in terms of mining exploration investment. Considering that our population is just over 33,000, this level of exploration activity is economically significant for Nunavut. And if even a small number of exploration projects go on to be developed as mines, they will represent a tremendous opportunity for employment and economic development in Nunavut.

This development also has an impact on the rest of Canada. By our own estimates, 80% of the economic benefits of mining in Nunavut accrue to other Canadian jurisdictions.

To briefly reiterate a point that was mentioned in earlier meetings of this committee, it is important for both governments to maintain a steadfast commitment to geoscience funding as a foundational investment in the future of the mining industry.

A territory as vast as Nunavut holds many mineral deposits, but because of the distance from modern infrastructure there is comparatively little geoscience data and these deposits remain largely undiscovered. Only through modern science can these opportunities be identified. These are the deposits we will need to sustain the industry 30 years from now, long after Canada has devolved control and administration of crown lands and resources to the Nunavut government, an objective shared by both the Government of Canada and Nunavut.

The first five years of the federal geo-mapping for energy and minerals program, or GEM, have been very successful. But this type of research is ongoing, and a long-term commitment is needed, with a great deal of prospective ground to cover. We urge the Government of Canada to extend the geo-mapping of energy and minerals program to another productive five-year term.

Returning to the socio-economic impacts of resource development, the basic consideration for Nunavut is local employment. Over the next decade, several thousand Nunavut residents will have the opportunity to gain employment in the mining industry, if they are prepared to take advantage of the opportunities.

In Nunavut, education is challenging. Specialized industrial training is essential. The three territories have determined that we have similar needs in terms of training. Jointly, we have now produced a northern mine training strategy that will respond to the imminent expansion of the mining industry we all believe is coming.

We hope the federal government will continue to lead in providing the needed funding to develop our human resources and prepare for new employment. We believe the return on investment in training is excellent. With increased access to training and employment, Nunavummiut and Nunavut will become more self-reliant.

To date we have been generally satisfied with the work and professionalism of our resident regulatory agencies and related bodies. But with the increase in project applications we can predict, we must ensure that our agencies have the human and financial resources they will need. There is always a challenge in attracting and keeping skilled professionals in the north, where we believe they must be in order to see the full picture.

I encourage the committee to support the introduction into Parliament and passing of the Nunavut Planning and Project Assessment Act, developed by the Government of Canada in close consultation with the Government of Nunavut and Nunavut Tunngavik Incorporated. This will provide even more certainty in our regulatory process.

The mining industry requires predictability and certainty of tenure and access in order for companies to commit to long-term investment. Any lack of consistency of approach between various levels of government or owner groups can undermine the industry’s commitment. A coordinated approach is preferable, and a reliable and impartial dispute resolution mechanism must be in place, like our Surface Rights Tribunal.

A final constraint to development that should be mentioned is the lack of strategic transportation infrastructure in Nunavut. Natural resource development should not be viewed as the only reason for the federal government to recognize the importance of Nunavut’s infrastructure; let’s say that's just one of several good reasons.

The lack of infrastructure in Nunavut affects the viability of mining projects and can needlessly delay projects. This applies to different parts of a mine’s life cycle. Two advanced projects that could become mines this decade are the Meliadine gold project near Rankin Inlet and the Chidliak diamond project near Iqaluit. Both highlight the need for marine infrastructure in these communities. Mining projects also face limitations due to Nunavut’s gravel runways and other airport infrastructure.

Through the points I have touched on today, geoscience, training, the regulatory and tenure system, and infrastructure, I hope I have communicated the fragility of this important sector of the Nunavut economy. These issues have a direct bearing on whether we will realize the anticipated growth of the mining sector and of Nunavut's economy. In some areas, these issues have already caused jobs losses instead of job gains and economic contraction instead of growth. However, we remain optimistic that these challenges can be managed through our own diligence and the continued support and engagement of the federal government. I would like to commend the Government of Canada for demonstrating that engagement through the recent appointment of the federal devolution negotiator.

In closing, I would like to thank the committee for this opportunity to express the Government of Nunavut’s perspective on the current state of natural resources in Nunavut.

Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

9:05 a.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Leon Benoit

Thank you very much, Minister, for your presentation.

We will go to the final presenter now, from the Government of the Northwest Territories, the Honourable Michael Miltenberger, Minister of Environment and Natural Resources.

Welcome to you, sir. Go ahead with your presentation.

9:05 a.m.

Michael Miltenberger Minister of Environment and Natural Resources, Government of the Northwest Territories

Good morning.

If I weren't sitting so far away in Yellowknife, I'd feel somewhat underdressed compared to the rest of you folks, but I'll carry on regardless.

The Northwest Territories is a land of enormous wealth—wealth that is seen in the land as it now exists—with enormous portions of boreal forest and water, and ecosystems that are without parallel anywhere in the world. It's also enormously wealthy with the resources that are under the land: the diamonds, the oil, the gas, and the rare metals.

The challenge for us—and for all of us—is sustainable development. Our legislative assembly has a vision of strong individuals, families, and communities sharing the benefits and responsibilities of a unified, environmentally sustainable, and prosperous NWT. How do we do this?

We have a lot of things under way that are going to help us as northerners to do the right things. Most importantly, we are one of two jurisdictions left in this country that do not have control over land, water, and resource development—ourselves and Nunavut. We are very close to signing a devolution agreement that will finally give us the final piece, the final levers that we need as northerners to manage land, water, and resource development so that decisions in the north are made by northerners, for northerners, and in the best interests of northerners.

As well, that ties into regulatory reform. Devolution is going to be one of the biggest parts of regulatory reform, because it's going to mean that we can make decisions in the north without having to go to Ottawa and wait for months and sometimes years for bureaucrats and politicians in Ottawa to make decisions that should be—and soon will be—made in the north.

At the same time, the federal government has embarked upon their own process of regulatory reform that—as you can see after listening to Dr. MacDonald—has had a strong response from a lot of the aboriginal governments. We're going to have to balance out the approach going forward, but for us, the key is devolution.

In terms of resource development, we are challenged by some significant factors. One of the big ones is energy, including the cost to run a business and to do business in the north in mines in remote locations, where you have to import diesel fuel. In some cases it's $1.50 to $1.60 a litre for fuel.

It's the same challenge that we have in our small communities in providing electricity. We in the Northwest Territories are intent on coming forward with an energy plan that's going to see us do hydro interconnects in the north and south Slave, the Slave geological province, so we can have transmission lines that allow us to move the hydro that we do have available in the Snare and the Talston systems, transmission lines so we'll be able to link them together and can in fact do some expansions and be in a position to provide energy at reasonable costs to some of the proponents for some of the mines, such as the Avalon Rare Metals, Tamerlane, and NICO mines. The long term, of course, would be for the future development, where the diamond mines currently reside.

We also want to come forward with a solar plan that's going to allow us to help lower the costs in the small communities by putting solar to a target of about 10% penetration. Also, in the far north around Inuvik, we want to sort out the problems related to the depletion of the current natural gas wells and what the opportunities are there.

We are making what are for us very substantial investments in biomass, geothermal, solar, and wind. We see these as critical developments that are going to allow us to in fact have a sustainable cost of living in the north and a cost of doing business so that businesses can come in and run their businesses in an environmentally sustainable way that's affordable.

One of the big corporate examples I can point to is the Diavik mine, one of the diamond mines north of Yellowknife. They're installing some very big wind turbines that are going to help cut their costs by up to 30%. It's a $24-million investment that will be repaid in about five years from the savings they're going to generate. They've done thorough testing to make sure they're making the right decision.

Our challenge is the fiscal constraint we have to operate under. Right now we have a borrowing limit of $800 million. We have over the last number of years, like every other government, worked through the recession and taken advantage of stimulus funding. We have accrued a debt of about $656 million, which means we have about $144 million of borrowing room between our borrowing limit and what we have currently in debt.

We have the grid interconnects I was talking about. That's a $750,000 ticket item. We know that up north we want to invest in the Tuktoyaktuk-Inuvik highway. That initially started out at about $200 million. That project, with some help from the federal government, is now going to be much closer, in our estimation, to $300 million.

Inuvik is going to be one of two sites in the entire world that does remote sensing, and we want to put a fibre optic line down the valley so that we can have Inuvik provide that remote-sensing service. But they need to be able to have access to that information right away; we need to have a fibre optic line down the valley. That's a project that will open up the whole territory. It has a price tag of about $80 million.

So those are just a couple of the fiscal constraints we have, good projects that would benefit Canada and the Northwest Territories, but we are limited because of our fiscal limitations.

As we go forward we are very concerned about the balance of resource development and environment. We are open for business. We want to do it in a sustainable way. We want to invest heavily in infrastructure, not only the energy infrastructure, but roads as well, so that we can get the roads to resources that former Prime Minister Diefenbaker talked about. The time is now. We have some huge oil play in the Sahtu region that's going to require some investment. We want to do that in a planned way. We want to work with the communities to make sure that we look at their costs with alternative energy. We want to work with the mines to look at what other alternative energies are there, besides just relying on the incredibly expensive diesel.

To do all this properly.... I want to get back and conclude with the need to have the devolution agreement signed and have a strong post-devolution deal, an arrangement with Ottawa. Then northerners in the Northwest Territories will finally be able to truly chart their own course to the future.

Thank you.

9:15 a.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Leon Benoit

Thank you very much, Minister, for your presentation.

We go now to questions and comments from members of the committee.

I'll start with Mike Allen, for up to seven minutes, please. Go ahead, sir.

9:15 a.m.

Conservative

Mike Allen Conservative Tobique—Mactaquac, NB

Thank you very much, Chair.

Thank you to our witnesses for being here today. They were very good presentations.

I'd like to start with Minister Taptuna and Minister Miltenberger.

Minister Taptuna, you talked in your presentation about how to date you've been generally satisfied with the work and professionalism of the resident regulatory agencies and related bodies. When you say generally, what have been maybe one or two good things you've seen, and maybe a couple of areas that you see as opportunities for improvement?

Specifically, you talked a little about the human financial services that would be needed to build capacity as you go forward. Are there other things you're concerned about with respect to the review board going forward?

9:15 a.m.

Minister of Economic Development and Transportation, Government of Nunavut

Peter Taptuna

Absolutely, and thank you for that question.

The Nunavut Impact Review Board is legislated under the Nunavut land claims agreement, and for the most part it's been a small organization since 1999. The expansion and growth in exploration activity has grown in tremendous proportions, and the application process has been slowed down because of the lack of resources within these regulatory bodies, including the Nunavut Planning Commission and the Nunavut Water Board.

The reason is that under the Nunavut land claims agreement, it's a regulatory body that regulates all projects such as these. It's one of the greater things that we've seen in the land claims agreement. But the manpower, the lack of resources going into these entities, has limited their output with the growth of all the development that's happening up north.

9:15 a.m.

Conservative

Mike Allen Conservative Tobique—Mactaquac, NB

Mr. Miltenberger, do you see similar issues with the regulatory agencies and bodies?

9:15 a.m.

Minister of Environment and Natural Resources, Government of the Northwest Territories

Michael Miltenberger

Some things can be done that will have an almost immediate impact. For example, in the Northwest Territories we don't even have the authority to appoint our own members to the regulatory boards. It's all done through Ottawa. And there are times when simple things like quorum tie up the processes and the boards getting decisions made, for months on end. There's a need to clarify policy areas where there's greyness or overlap. Money has finally been put into the funding for the processes that are there--for example, the cumulative impact.

The federal government itself has come forward with a plan that's going to see some amalgamation of boards. We'll have to work through that one as well, because clearly there's some concern on the aboriginal government's side, but the big piece for us in terms of regulatory reform, as I indicated in my comments, is going to be devolution. You just have to look to the Yukon and how things improved over there in terms of timeliness and responsiveness and an ability for a quick, thorough turnaround on decisions. We anticipate the same type of benefit once devolution is signed.

Thank you.

9:15 a.m.

Conservative

Mike Allen Conservative Tobique—Mactaquac, NB

I want to ask you about the devolution issue as well.

You've expressed some concern, and I wonder if you have any concerns about the federal government lacking capacity to keep up with the number of projects. Or do you sense that with the proper devolution, any overlap can be eliminated and we would have a good review process going forward?

9:20 a.m.

Minister of Environment and Natural Resources, Government of the Northwest Territories

Michael Miltenberger

I think the intent by all parties is to have a good review process to avoid duplication. One of the issues we're struggling with, of course, as all governments are, is the deficit reduction exercises that are under way and the paring back of budgets and programs across government to meet fiscal targets. The concern, of course, on the environmental and regulatory side is that we need to have those processes properly funded so there is no delay due to lack of resources. That has already reared its head up here, and it's a concern we want to make sure we can avoid in our discussions and negotiations with the federal government.

9:20 a.m.

Conservative

Mike Allen Conservative Tobique—Mactaquac, NB

Mr. Taptuna.

9:20 a.m.

Minister of Economic Development and Transportation, Government of Nunavut

Peter Taptuna

Thank you.

Our chief negotiator has already initiated communications with NTI, Nunavut Tunngavik Incorporated, and the federal counterpart. We intend to press for the negotiations to continue and the sessions to begin. Our goal is to start negotiations for the agreement in principle with Canada and NTI.

One of the things I also want to note has to do with the regulatory processes. I mentioned in my presentation that we're looking for support in passing the Nunavut Planning and Project Assessment Act through the House. It's a legislative obligation under article 10 of the Nunavut land claims agreement. This act also includes timelines for decisions and increased consultation with industry and others. For the most part it will clarify roles and responsibilities of these boards and will help fulfill Canada's obligation under the Nunavut land claims agreement.

As we know from past experience, negotiations on devolution agreements take a long time, and we know from our neighbouring jurisdictions that it does take time. But with the right people in place, Nunavut would expect to see progress on devolution.

9:20 a.m.

Conservative

Mike Allen Conservative Tobique—Mactaquac, NB

I have a final question for all three of you about the education side of this.

Mr. Taptuna, you said specialized industrial training is essential. And Ms. MacDonald, you talked a little about the importance of a loyal northern workforce and the tremendous opportunities that can be developed for our northern workforce. The comment was that we have now produced a northern mine strategy that will respond to the imminent expansion, and all three territories have determined similar needs.

What do you think the proper approach to industrial training would be? We've had testimony before, which suggested the traditional classroom type of structure that we're used to in the southern provinces is not necessarily conducive to education in the north. What have you thought about in terms of that industrial training and how that needs to shake out?

9:20 a.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Leon Benoit

Mr. Taptuna, go ahead, please.

9:20 a.m.

Minister of Economic Development and Transportation, Government of Nunavut

Peter Taptuna

Thank you.

With the three territories we have cooperated on the northern minerals workforce development strategy, which I mentioned in my presentation. We're looking for a lot of economic growth and trained people in the north.

We're expecting within the next decade that there could be 5,000 jobs created through mining industry growth alone in the north. Of course we're convinced that with federal support on a pan-territorial mining training strategy it's going to be a wise investment. It puts back a lot of economic activity within the territory and also the rest of Canada.

One of the things we looked at in the past was that usually we have more success in training on the job, and in Nunavut we've done that with tremendous success. As we mentioned, in the classroom setting it's always pretty difficult, but with training on the job we've come to the realization that it's one of the best ways of training our people who lack academic education to begin with.

9:20 a.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Leon Benoit

Thank you, Mr. Allen.

We'll go to Mr. Bevington for up to seven minutes, please.

9:20 a.m.

NDP

Dennis Bevington NDP Western Arctic, NT

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Thank you to the witnesses who have shown up here today.

And to Mr. Miltenberger in Yellowknife, I appreciate you coming in by teleconference. I think that's saved the government a few dollars, and it should be the way of the future.

The government in the budget implementation bill has now put in the federal cabinet the ability to set the conditions for borrowing for the three territories by regulation, so this is something they can do and have to do yet.

When it comes to projects you've talked about, Mr. Miltenberger, in terms of the investment in public utility infrastructure, in energy projects that have a return, these won't fit if the self-financing loans are included in the regulations under the borrowing cap. Is this something that you see as important to the north to give us flexibility with borrowing, to allow these types of loans to be outside of the more traditional government investment in schools, in roads, in bridges, which don't have a rate of return?

9:25 a.m.

Minister of Environment and Natural Resources, Government of the Northwest Territories

Michael Miltenberger

Do I just carry on, Mr. Chair?

9:25 a.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Leon Benoit

Yes. Go ahead please, Mr. Miltenberger.

9:25 a.m.

Minister of Environment and Natural Resources, Government of the Northwest Territories

Michael Miltenberger

Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

What we are intent on doing here by this fall is laying out, for example, our energy plan, which is going to capture the initiatives that I discussed this morning in terms of the energy infrastructure, the grid interconnects, the solar strategy, dealing with Inuvik and some of those broad issues that are very critical to the economy. We're going to look for partners to do that, because we know we don't have the opportunity or the capacity to do it on our own.

As well, once we have our thinking clearly laid out, then, yes, the intention is going to be to talk to the federal government about ways whereby they can assist us. Right now a lot of the constraints are accounting decisions, for example, as the member indicated, in terms of having the self-financing parts of our debt going against our borrowing limit.

So those are areas where we see the value of further discussion with Finance Canada. We did agree to the $800 million borrowing limit, but clearly, as we lay out our plan for the future--which I think is very ambitious, but has to be done--we need to have the ability to talk once again about some of these areas.

9:25 a.m.

NDP

Dennis Bevington NDP Western Arctic, NT

Mr. Taptuna, you haven't really talked a lot about energy, but I know that when Nunavut Power was in front of us they said there was some real need for large-scale investment in hydroelectric facilities in Nunavut, especially near Iqaluit. Is that part of your government's plan?

9:25 a.m.

Minister of Economic Development and Transportation, Government of Nunavut

Peter Taptuna

Thank you.

As my colleague from the NWT indicated, in Nunavut the high cost of diesel-generated power and the ageing power infrastructure we have up there in the 26 communities is a high cost to the government and a high cost to the communities.

One of the things we're looking at in discussions on the potential Manitoba-Kivalliq road is, in the future, putting a power grid up through there, whether it's right through the road system or through that area. It would bring in more economic activity, whether it's mining or other economic things, especially in commodity trading. Manitoba gains about $300 million a year in trade from the Kivalliq region alone. That's critical infrastructure we're looking at.

For the most part, when we talk about generating hydro power, it's on the radar. But at this time it's unattainable due to the cost of infrastructure. We're looking at some of these alternative ways of getting to that point. Devolution is one of them. It would give us an advantage in getting revenue. Another example is Newfoundland and Labrador, where the Muskrat Falls project is supposed to be ongoing. With devolution, that will give us more opportunities.