Natural Resources Committee on Nov. 22nd, 2012

[The Chair, Conservative, Leon Benoit]

Good morning, everyone.

We're here to resume our study on innovation in the energy sector. We have with us today—or at least hope to have with us—three groups of witnesses. The witness from the Canadian Solar Industries Association isn't connected yet, but we'll work on that.

We will start this morning with presentations.

We have a point of order from Mr. Calkins.

[Blaine Calkins, Conservative, Wetaskiwin, AB]

Thank you, Chair.

I don't mean to delay the issue at hand today any longer than absolutely necessary. I'd like to welcome Ms. Bennett to the committee today. Her presence obviously indicates the absence of our previous Liberal critic, who made some regrettable comments and has subsequently resigned his position from this committee.

As an Albertan and as the only Albertan on this committee—notwithstanding your excellent chairmanship of this committee as a member of Parliament from Alberta—I was deeply offended to a certain degree, but also discouraged, by the nature of the comments that were made. As an Albertan, I am seized with all of the issues that affect my province and my constituents, whether it's reducing taxes, keeping economic growth and activity growing for our economy, or whether it's dealing with veterans' issues, defence issues, or what have you, as are all members of Parliament who are seized with these issues at the national level.

But it seemed to me that the comments were so stark and so jaded towards a particular sector of our economy.... I think all members of this particular committee understand the true value of that particular industry. Of course, this being the committee that would have a lot of interest in exploring that, I think that for the edification or re-edification of some committee members, to make sure that such comments aren't made again, I just want to advise members of the committee that it's very likely that I'll be bringing a motion forward in the very near future that this committee study and understand the economic benefits and impacts on the broader economy in general of our oil and gas sector, in particular the oil sands in Alberta and Saskatchewan. I'm just letting folks know that.

I welcome Ms. Bennett today and look forward to her positive and constructive comments. I know that we're going to have a permanent assignment of a different critic. I don't believe that it's going to be Ms. Bennett, but I'm looking forward to having a discussion and debate so we can make sure we don't have these kinds of unfortunate comments made by members—particularly members who should know better, who sit on this kind of committee—about a particular sector of our economy.

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

[The Chair, Conservative, Leon Benoit]

Thank you, Mr. Calkins. I am not sure that was a point of order, but we have heard you.

I see the first group of witnesses arriving.

I think I'll start, witnesses, with Mr. Chrapko. He's here and ready. Then we'll go back to the witnesses from the Canadian Solar Industries Association. As well, we have with us today, by video conference from Calgary, from Laricina Energy Ltd., Glen Schmidt, president and chief executive officer. We will start our hearings today with Mr. Chrapko from Himark bioGas Inc.

Mr. Chrapko, you have appeared before our committee in the past on a couple of occasions. It's great to see you here again to give us your information on innovation in the energy sector.

Go ahead, please.

[Evan Chrapko, Co-Chief Executive Officer, Himark bioGas Inc.]

Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

I'm here representing a renewable energy company that takes waste and converts it to energy. It was started in Alberta, thanks to the Alberta Research Council in 1999 and the work that was being done there in conjunction with my business partners.

This work would have stayed in the province were it not for an acknowledgement by the province that it warranted being commercialized and taken to the rest of the world. Where my brethren in wind, solar, hydro, geothermal, and nuclear all get to energy, so do we, but in the waste-to-energy space we're also taking care of some significant negatives. We destroy disease, and we take noxious elements out of the environment in cases where they are choking water supplies or threatening the water table and so on.

I understand that at this moment the committee is looking specifically at innovation in this sector. My main comment or take-away, if you remember nothing else from what I say, is that in the renewable sector and in innovation in general you're talking about a knowledge-based activity that is infinitely renewable and perpetual or is going to be reliable as long as there are humans on earth.

As long as there are humans on earth, there will be innovations and advances in science. The same cannot necessarily be said for quantities or fixed stocks of such things as petroleum or hydrocarbons. That's not to disparage those. I'm just saying that any help or incentives towards renewables or that form of energy is a bet on the future and on human ingenuity. As a technology investment executive, I think that's always a good place to place your money or your hopes for a better future.

I've just returned from a trip through Saudi Arabia and Southeast Asia. Even in those jurisdictions that, by some standards or impressions, are awash in energy and have very low energy costs as a result, you have those jurisdictions now acknowledging that such things as the hydrocarbons—gas and oil—will end up being swing supplies of energy that address the margins or peak loads, while renewables will end up in the position of supplying the baseload power. That steady power that we all rely on and that our infrastructure relies on 24 hours a day, seven days a week, will end up being the conventional source of energy. Less and less conventional, or more and more precious, you might say, as stocks dwindle on the hydrocarbon side, you'll have those very valuable and easily deployed sources in gas and oil being saved or preserved for the more precious uses, and we'll find ourselves relying on renewables for our baseload power, as it's known.

You have jurisdictions such as Saudi Arabia itself now predicting that they will themselves cannibalize for their own economic activities the oil that they produce and sell to the rest of the world. Now two-thirds of their oil goes to exports, but they're predicting that in the not too distant future they themselves will be consuming the equivalent of what they produce today. So in regions on the other side of the world from us there's a call to arms that says renewables are the way of the future. They have to be because, as I mentioned at the outset, my take-away for you is that anything based on human ingenuity or anything based on science and actual knowledge or developments in the state of the art is a good place to place your bets.

You have the Emirate of Abu Dhabi in the United Arab Emirates, having established their sovereign wealth fund, modelled after the Alberta Heritage Savings Trust Fund, now being capable of running that whole country just on the interest alone, the interest on growth in their sovereign wealth fund. But you have them, who people might forgive for focusing completely on hydrocarbons, lobbying hard and succeeding at bringing in IRENA, the new renewable energy association equivalent of OPEC, to house and establish itself in Abu Dhabi. Why? Because with the characteristic vision there on this subject of energy, they've said that they want to be on top of and understand or be at the forefront of any of the innovations going on in renewables.

I'll make my closing comments to the committee.

The innovation that we enjoy in Canada—specifically, I can talk of the Province of Alberta—is second to none. Not only are we are a global energy superpower on the conventional side—hydrocarbons and petroleum—but we can be for renewables. We have started to show our chops or credentials globally, and in our case, for waste to energy, as I said, started by the Alberta Research Council and generously and fortunately supported by SDTC, based here in Ottawa, with the fantastic work they've done along the way in taking an early position in our developments and scale-ups.

Without the Alberta government, with programs such as BCMDP and PCP, the producer credit program, we would not be able to add to the fuel pool in a way that we're now doing with our Growing Power Hairy Hill project. Also, Himark, as a technology provider in waste to energy, could not itself go around the world, as we are now, building some of the biggest biogas plants in existence. There's one being constructed in Kansas as we speak, and another under development in Karachi, a city of 18 million people with only 60% to 70% of the electric power it needs and a lot of waste.

Again, without the support of programs and institutions that this government has been responsible for forming—I'm referring to the SDTC again—we wouldn't be where we are, and Canada wouldn't be in the enviable position of being an example to the rest of the world as to what's possible with energy writ large.

Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

[The Chair, Conservative, Leon Benoit]

Thank you, Mr. Chrapko, for your presentation.

As I indicated, we'll go now to the Canadian Solar Industries Association and the two witnesses from that association, John Gorman, president, and Ian MacLellan, president and chief executive officer of Ubiquity Solar Incorporated.

Gentlemen, go ahead with your presentation, please. Thank you very much for coming today as well.

[John Gorman, President, Canadian Solar Industries Association]

Thank you very much.

Hello. My name is John Gorman and I am the president of the Canadian Solar Industries Association, also known as CanSIA. We are a national trade association that represents approximately 650 solar energy companies throughout Canada. Since 1992, CanSIA has worked to develop a strong, efficient, ethical and professional Canadian solar energy industry with the capacity to provide innovative solar energy solutions and to play a major role in the global transition to a sustainable, clean energy future.

On behalf of the Canadian solar energy industry, I would like to thank the clerks of the committee for coordinating our participation today and the chair and members of the committee for inviting CanSIA to provide you with an overview of the current Canadian innovation system in the generation, transmission, and use of solar energy.

If I may, I'm going to be reading from some written remarks for the allotted time here, and then we'll hopefully be getting into questions and answers later.

The major points I'm going to be making through these several pages are as follows. Simply, solar is happening and is being adopted and deployed globally very quickly, more rapidly than we would have thought possible even four or five years ago, and Canada, especially because of the activity we've had here in Ontario and because of the support of the federal government in select ways, is positioned right now to be a world player in select areas in solar energy. What we need in this country is an approach to energy that factors in all technologies and an evolution towards I think an inevitable state wherein renewable energies have a very significant part to play.

Our two recommendations are going to ask that the federal government help support our solar future and help support our innovation future in Canada.

Solar energy is Canada's largest proven energy resource. It's abundant in each and every Canadian community. The deployment of solar energy technology enjoys more support and creates more local jobs and economic opportunity than any other energy resource. As you will hear later today, the world is rapidly moving along towards a reality in which solar and distributed energy is a mainstream, widespread, and cost-effective energy choice.

An anecdote that I enjoy sharing to explain the growth in activity that we have experienced here in Canada with solar energy in the past few years is this sort of practical example. Five years ago, our annual conference took place in a hotel basement in Toronto. It had fewer than 20 exhibitors and fewer than 250 attendees. That was five years ago, but in two weeks' time, this same conference, which I will be hosting, is expected to attract 5,000 attendees from across Canada and the world and will feature more than 300 corporate exhibitors, making it one of the largest energy conferences in Canada. The point is that over the past five years we have had a greater-than-ten-times growth in participation in this show.

This growth illustrates the significant opportunity that innovative technology and industries can generate in a short amount of time. Commercializing innovative technologies being developed today through ongoing Canadian fundamental and applied research, development, and demonstration could catapult Canada into the role of clean energy superpower that it seeks.

I'm very pleased to share with you today some very exciting made-in-Canada opportunities and success stories. I'm going to do that with the assistance of Ian MacLellan, president and CEO of Ubiquity Solar and chair of CanSIA's solar electricity innovation working group.

Mr. MacLellan is the lead author for a solar electricity innovation white paper that CanSIA is currently developing in consultation with key representatives from industry, academia, and government. I might add that Ian is one of Canada's most experienced and leading authorities on the subject.

I'd like to take a moment to provide some global context around the scale of the opportunity that solar energy technology presents. Global energy market growth is taking place at an astounding rate and is forecast to triple in 2035 from what it is today. Renewable energy is playing an important role in providing this excess energy demand, with solar growing more rapidly than any other renewable energy technology, and more rapidly than experts could have predicted.

Renewable energy will become the second-largest source of power generation globally by 2015, and renewable energy will have tripled its 2010 level by 2035, with 15% of that coming from solar. Notably, 60% of global energy market growth is to be concentrated in China, India, and the Middle East, each a jurisdiction with significant ambitions for solar energy in their energy supply, and a massive opportunity for Canadian solar energy technology.

One of the most exciting developments in the renewable energy sector in recent years has been the decline in cost to the point at which renewable energy sources have accelerated the evolution away from historical alternatives. Most notably, the selling prices of PV cells fell by over 50%, from $1.50 per watt in September 2010, to under 65¢ per watt today. The reason for this significant downward cost trend includes innovation and over-investment in the global solar manufacturing sector. However, the downward cost trend experienced over the past five years and more is similar to what we have experienced with technologies such as desktop computing and wireless devices.

Canadian solar energy technology does and will compete globally in the highly competitive solar energy market with new, superior, and differentiated technologies. Our innovation system now features well-developed technology clusters, where key private and institutional research partners collaborate with companies of global significance. I'd like to give you a few Canadian examples.

One is Schneider Electric, whose facility in Burnaby, B.C., has an annual R and D budget for solar energy power electronics of $20 million and employs 200 individuals, In a recent news release, it was announced that Schneider Electric will be supplying 95 inverters to 72 megawatts of solar projects in Puerto Rico. The reason for the selection of this Canadian technology is that it's one of the only products in the market that meets the very stringent performance requirements set by the Puerto Rico Electric Power Authority.

Additional exciting Canadian success stories in solar energy power electronics include microinverter manufacturer SPARQ Systems, here in Kingston, Ontario, and Solantro Semiconductor Corp. in Ottawa, whose technology can significantly improve the performance of solar technology in urban areas.

More exciting innovation success stories include Morgan Solar, an Ontario-based company whose proprietary technology has significant potential to slash the cost of solar energy by using inexpensive materials to focus and concentrate sunlight onto solar cells. There are also many Canadian success stories in solar heating technology, including the SolarWall air-heating system that has seen considerable success globally, and more emerging smart grid technologies, electrical storage, and building-integrated PV, not to mention electric car charging systems.

With over 100 researchers in universities across Canada working on PV-related research at the cell level alone, and with an estimated 385 patents for solar energy and photovoltaics registered by Canada between 2003 and 2011 to the U.S. Patent and Trademark Office, more successes can certainly be expected.

I'd like to note that each of these success stories featured here got support from the Government of Canada in a variety of ways. While opportunities and successes for solar energy innovation in Canada are growing, strong and targeted action is required to ensure we can maximize the benefit to Canada and to Canadians.

I'd now like to conclude my opening remarks by providing some recommendations as to how the role of the federal government in supporting solar innovation could be bolstered by two clear actions. Our first recommendation relates to the market for solar and distributed energy technology in Canada. It's small and has been slow to develop in global terms, largely due to the fact that our policy and regulatory framework for the acceleration of the deployment of renewable energy technology is inadequate and significantly behind that of the United States, Europe, and other key trading partners.

The innovative FIT program in Ontario has developed significant industry capacity in Canada; however, it comprises over 95% of the Canadian market at this time, while the remaining market activity is taking place in a fragmented fashion across the country.

New targeted stimuli and mechanisms such as the U.S. federal investment tax credit, and other non-financial mechanisms such as those through building codes or environmental performance standards, could, at very little cost, keep Canada in step with the rest of the world.

[The Chair, Conservative, Leon Benoit]

Mr. Gorman, your time for your presentation is up. We're really under a tight timeline today because the bells have started ringing.

If you could close in 30 seconds, we'll then get to the final witnesses.

[John Gorman]

Thank you for pointing that out.

Therefore, our first recommendation is that the federal government support Canada's solar future. The Government of Canada should establish a clear federal voice for solar and distributed energy technology and engage in a dialogue with the provinces to improve coordination and impact through innovative and smart policies, which can include financial and non-financial.

The second recommendation is that the federal government support solar innovation in Canada through continued strong funding from key innovation facilities and enabling programs such as those developed by NRCan's Canmet and NSERC networks, and through Sustainable Development Technology Canada.

We have additional information for you, of course, and will leave it behind. I thank you very much for your attention.

[The Chair, Conservative, Leon Benoit]

Thank you very much for your presentation.

We go now to the final presentation for today. It's from Laricina Energy Limited. Glen Schmidt is the president and chief executive officer.

Go ahead, please, sir, with your presentation. Thank you for being here today.

[Glen Schmidt, President and Chief Executive Officer, Laricina Energy Ltd.]

Good afternoon, Mr. Chairman and members of the committee.

Thank you for the opportunity to share, and I think with some pride, what I believe is a great news story. Laricina is an example of a Canadian-founded in situ oil sands company leading in innovation to support the goals of all Canadians, responsibly developing the valuable resources of Canada while contributing needed energy, and providing positive economic impacts balanced with environmental performance.

In situ oil sands, which will produce for centuries, are the future for oil production in Canada. The International Energy Agency, the IEA, identifies these resources as the largest oil deposit outside of OPEC countries and considers it necessary to meet the world’s energy demand for oil. Think of in situ as drillable oil sands, and the cousin of conventional oil. The footprint of a horizontal well in drillable oil sands is very similar to that for a conventional horizontal well. For example, the same land surface is required as a resource; however, in return, up to 10 times more energy will be produced.

Unlike many conventional oil and gas projects, we operate commercially with non-potable water, but what is really exciting is not what we have done but where we are going. We're working as an industry in the field today at testing the combination of steam and solvent for enhanced recovery that would decrease the carbon footprint per barrel on a full-cycle basis to less than that of much of the crude imported into the United States. You may have seen or heard about various documentaries, such as the CBC documentary on oil sands. What this program did not discuss is what drillable oil sands are doing to meet the needs for economic prosperity, energy supply, and responsible environmental performance through continuing innovation in our industry.

Canadian companies, including Laricina, are giving the government and Canadians many reasons to be proud. Included in those are the quality of the work and the quality of production compared to that of alternative oil producers, as well as the economic participation in this Canadian resource. The October Conference Board of Canada report shows that one third of the economic benefits of meeting the needs of this development extend beyond the province. In 2011 alone, $300 million in labour income was invested in workers from Newfoundland, B.C., and Saskatchewan. In this world of economic uncertainty, energy is providing strong support across the country.

Laricina is a private company founded by Albertans. I was born in Calgary and educated at the University of Calgary in chemistry, engineering, and business. Laricina, in a little more than seven years, has positioned projects for development to recover more than five billion barrels of oil over more than 30 years. While this is a part of the larger in situ oil sands development, we are leading in the understanding and recovery of a new geologic resource, the Grosmont, and innovating to improve both the economic and environmental performance. We are doing this while contributing to our communities through more than just jobs.

Laricina began steaming at the first steam-assisted gravity drainage—or SAGD—pilot in the Grosmont carbonate at Saleski in December 2010, after nearly five years of delineation, studies, research, and testing. The Grosmont formation is a carbonate reservoir that is dolomitic rock, like what is quarried in Manitoba, and has been used in buildings like the Banff Springs hotel.

This is unlike the sand reservoirs mined in Fort McMurray and more like the large carbonate oil reservoirs in the Middle East. The Energy Resources Conservation Board, the ERCB, has identified that more than 400 billion barrels of bitumen-in-place—or 25% of the bitumen potential in Canada—is contained in this formation, representing a material growth opportunity for Alberta and Canada.

We estimate that the project area contains approximately 150 billion barrels of recoverable bitumen. Carbonate reservoirs have yielded the world’s largest conventional light oil fields, and the Grosmont could be a carbonate reservoir nearly as big as Ghawhar, Saudi Arabia's largest giant oil field. Laricina, one of your Canadian companies, is the frontier to opening up this valuable resource for the benefit of all Canadians. Positive results will launch a new development area for oil resource development for Canada.

Recently we advanced the first commercial-scale development for regulatory filing, based on our pilot results. We expect approval in 2013, with an on-stream date in the third quarter of 2015.

The oil sands are changing. More than 50% of production is from in situ or drillable techniques and, as stated, this is the growth area for the future. This is even before unlocking the carbonates. At Laricina, we are not satisfied to just utilize existing techniques. We believe it is possible to balance the economic benefits of developing the oil sands with environmental management. We also believe that technology provides the way for us to improve our environmental management and still generate attractive economic investments.

For example, we have developed a method for the combination of light hydrocarbons and steam to potentially reduce the steam requirements in half, as well as halving the water utilized and carbon emissions. These enhancements are aimed at reducing energy needs and, thereby, production costs, on a per barrel basis. These designs will be tested in both our Saleski pilot and our second and adjacent project at Germain, in the Grand Rapids formation, which is now under construction.

A technology and energy production consortium that includes Laricina, Nexen, Suncor, and Harris Corporation in the U.S. has successfully completed initial proof-of-concept testing of a unique oil sands extraction method that has the potential to improve environmental performance and reduce development costs. This group is looking at the delivery of energy without steam or burning of natural gas.

Our initial testing confirms the ability to successfully generate, propagate, and distribute electromagnetic heat in the oil sands formation. This technology reduces the energy required and potentially eliminates the need for water during in situ recovery of bitumen by using radio waves to heat the oil sands electronically. We believe this has the potential to be a next-generation extraction technique. Similar to the well-publicized shale plays, technology has opened up previously inaccessible resources. In situ technology is evolving and is only at a starting point.

Laricina has partnered extensively with the University of Calgary as part of our fundamental approach to research and innovation. The technology for drillable oil sands was initially established by Dr. Butler at the U of C in the 1980s. He is the father of SAGD.

We're pushing this further. Laricina chairs a consortium of 16 companies doing fundamental research on solvent-enhanced recovery and adding a natural part of oil, the light hydrocarbons, to steam. For example, propane and butane, which we use for cooking or heating, as well as the light condensate that we use for fuel, can be returned into the reservoirs they came from to enhance recovery.

Nearly 30 years ago, Alberta was the leading enhanced-recovery jurisdiction in conventional oil pools, using propane and other light hydrocarbons in these reservoirs. We are continuing this innovation leadership in drillable oil sands. Laricina’s focus has been to sponsor research and scholarships. Notwithstanding our size, we have invested or committed nearly a million dollars to the University of Calgary. In each of the last three summers, we have employed more than 15 co-op and summer engineering students, or approximately 10% of our staff complement.

In Wabasca, where are operations are located, we play a positive role in the community, providing opportunities for local businesses and contributing to community well-being through donations, staff time, volunteerism, the recording of traditional values and land use, and employment. This has been our commitment since we began operations in the area in 2006. In 2008, we established our local office, which has been staffed from the community. When field operations commenced—

[The Chair, Conservative, Leon Benoit]

Excuse me, Mr. Schmidt.

You have less than a minute left. Could you do a quick wrap-up of your presentation? We do have to go to votes right away.

[Glen Schmidt]

Okay. I will do so.

[The Chair, Conservative, Leon Benoit]

You have one minute.

[Glen Schmidt]

The in situ sector is advanced technology and has a material impact on the economy. We are asking how we can work with you to have effective regulation, not more regulation, and how we can have access to capital. As a company, we have raised approximately $1.3 billion. CPP is our largest shareholder. Free flow of capital allows us as a company to do what we've just discussed. Contributions include nearly 1,000 companies in B.C., Ontario, and Quebec, as an industry.

I think what we're looking for and asking for is to contribute to the conversations, as we're doing this morning, so we can not only illustrate to you but demonstrate to you that technology benefits are flowing across the country, and there is considerable progress from where we are as an industry to where we're going. Laricina is committed to doing our part.

Thank you.

[The Chair, Conservative, Leon Benoit]

Thank you very much.

[David Anderson, Conservative, Cypress Hills—Grasslands, SK]

Excuse me, Mr. Chair. I was just wondering why we didn't have the lights in the room here. We need that. Maybe we should look into that.

[The Chair, Conservative, Leon Benoit]

Yes, I noticed that as well.

We have to suspend the meeting. It will probably be somewhere between half and three-quarters of an hour before we return. We can return for an abbreviated question and comment period.

Thanks very much to all of you for your presentations. I apologize for this inconvenience. That's the way things work around here all too often.

[The Chair, Conservative, Leon Benoit]

Good afternoon again. We will resume the meeting. Barring another vote, we have about 50 minutes left for questions and comments.

We'll start with the government side for up to seven minutes.

Mr. Trost.

[Bradley Trost, Conservative, Saskatoon—Humboldt, SK]

Thank you, Mr. Chair. I will start with Mr. Schmidt.

Mr. Schmidt, as we were finishing up before the vote, you were talking about a few issues and making recommendations, such as effective regulation and the free flow of capital. You were cut off a little bit early, so I'm going to give you two minutes to finish up what you were saying.

[The Chair, Conservative, Leon Benoit]

Go ahead, Mr. Schmidt.

[Glen Schmidt]

Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

Thank you.

The two comments on effective regulation were an acknowledgment on our company's part, and certainly on the part of the industry, that we do need to not only improve it, but that in making it effective, it's not about more regulation. It's about having a joint commitment to make it effective; whether it's the now joint environmental monitoring program between the federal and provincial government in Alberta, there is commitment to it. As those evolve, having the recognition that we're not simply adding but we're being more effective in the outcome is really just making visible that goal.

With respect to capital, we're a company that has no cashflow, notwithstanding the fact that we've raised $1.3 billion. To get to our commercial-scale development, as a company we will raise another $2 billion. The economics underlying the industry do not mean that we cannot attract that capital, but the free flow of capital dictates two things, really. One, is it available? Two, what's its price? As there's consideration of investment by foreign entities, whether those foreign entities are from France, Norway, the United States, or China, that free flow of capital goes a long way to addressing the gap we have.

In the energy sector that gap can be up to $50 billion a year: a shortfall between what could be funded domestically and what's needed, whether that comes from the U.S.—as about 40% of our shareholders do—or from overseas. There is a direct impact not only on our company, but also on other companies like ours with aspirations to do the job we are discussing. Free flow of capital is a very important part of that.

[Bradley Trost, Conservative, Saskatoon—Humboldt, SK]

If I could continue in the same vein with our other witnesses, perhaps because it's this time of year when we're in our pre-budget consultations and everyone comes around asking for money, tax credits, and direct subsidies, etc., I'm looking for something other than direct money, because that we're going to get in various requests over the years. We get that all the time.

To get your innovation, you need capital, you need personnel, and you need the ability to do something. Other than government giving you direct money one way or another, what are the sorts of things that help you to be innovative, that attract the innovative people who have an idea for building a solar mousetrap that the whole world will beat a path to their door to get? What recommendations do you have that do not involve money to attract the people, the capital, etc.?

[The Chair, Conservative, Leon Benoit]

Mr. Gorman, and then Mr. MacLellan, go ahead.

[John Gorman]

Thank you.

I would just like to say that what we have accomplished here in Canada—in particular, over these last four or five years as a result of the Ontario program—has resulted in a great degree of activity, including the education of a legal system, a financing system, and an overnight explosive growth of industry, with a very big industry base and expertise, and with institutions starting to study solar PV. When you talk about non-financial things, I think there's a role for the federal government to play in making sure that the expertise we're starting here goes across Canada.

[Ian MacLellan, President and Chief Executive Officer, Ubiquity Solar Inc., Canadian Solar Industries Association]

I think one has to take a look at what's really going on in solar worldwide. We're in a race with the Germans, the Americans, and the Chinese. For example, in 2010, the Chinese government made available $41 billion to stimulate the solar industry.

One of the reasons I took on chairing the innovation committee is I that think this is where Canada can compete on the world stage. I don't think Canada is necessarily going to create a huge global company, but we can create the Magnas and the Linamars of the solar world.

In terms of innovation, we have some really smart people. I've been directly involved in about $50 million of R and D investment in Canada in solar. We have some really good people and we have some really great institutions like NSERC and SDTC to support that activity.

In terms of non-money, I would make solar a key part of the energy strategy, because solar is the fastest-growing mainstream energy on the planet. If we want to be involved with the fastest-growing thing creating the most jobs, then maybe we should do that.