Natural Resources Committee on Nov. 27th, 2012

[The Chair, Conservative, Leon Benoit]

Do you want to speak to your amendment, Mr. Julian?

[Peter Julian, NDP, Burnaby—New Westminster, BC]

I think I have already spoken to it, Mr. Chair.

The environmental impacts of all energy policies should be considered. That's important. Subsidies are increasingly becoming a topic we should study. Last week, we received Blue Green Canada's report that talked about the subsidies in the energy sector. We're talking about $1.3 billion.

According to the study, the oil industry has created 2,860 jobs. However, if the same amount of money was invested in sales and energy efficiency, about 20,000 jobs could be created. In other words, Mr. Chair, those subsidies could have helped create 10 times more jobs if they had been invested in another sector.

Of course, we agree with conducting a study on the sector's economic benefits, but we also need to strike a balance and approach this issue professionally. That's how Canadians want us to approach these issues. I think that studying environmental impacts and the cost of subsidies is of the utmost importance.

That's why we are proposing this amendment. We want to turn the page on the witch hunt the Conservatives seem intent on leading, and we want the committee to undertake a study that will benefit taxpayers who, after all, pay our salaries.

[The Chair, Conservative, Leon Benoit]

Thank you, Mr. Julian.

Mr. Nicholls, is this to the proposed amendment?

[Jamie Nicholls, NDP, Vaudreuil—Soulanges, QC]

Yes.

I think the impact of the energy sector upon the environment is relevant to the work of the committee. Going toward and transitioning to an energy sector that embraces sustainable development has been identified by many international bodies, such as the World Economic Forum in its report on competitiveness. For the past three years, they've been talking about sustainable development as a driver of advanced economies.

The fact that $1.3 billion goes toward oil industry subsidies means we are missing the boat on where we can take the Canadian economy in being an energy superpower. We could use it to our advantage to drive innovation, to drive competition globally. The BlueGreen Alliance conference report has identified that if that money were invested, it would create 18,000 jobs. I believe that is the figure. That is not an insignificant number.

I would be interested in looking at the creation of those 18,000 jobs. Would jobs be lost elsewhere? What would the job creation numbers be in the natural resource sector if we made that shift?

The study we were going to ask the witnesses about today, touching on innovation, speaks to the weaknesses in our Canadian economy right now. If you trust the World Economic Forum's reports on competitiveness, we've gone from position 6 in the world to position 9, to position 12, to position 14. We would hope to see some improvement there.

If the government has identified that the energy sector is a signal to investors and to Canadians that the energy sector is of prime importance to our economy, then it should have spinoff benefits, which it presently does. There is value added to the energy sector and there are spinoff benefits, but we should be looking at them more in depth and looking at our international partners to see which way they are taking their economies and how we can compete with those advanced economies in the world.

I would just like to add that I believe I saw Mr. Smillie table a document for members of the committee.

Is that correct? Did he table a document with Mr. Leef for the committee? That is an open question for the chair. Was there a document? I just saw Mr. Smillie table a document with the government members. Is that available to all the members of the committee?

[The Chair, Conservative, Leon Benoit]

I don't think I have a document from Mr. Smillie.

[David Anderson, Conservative, Cypress Hills—Grasslands, SK]

Can we go to the question on the amendment?

[The Chair, Conservative, Leon Benoit]

Are we ready for the question on the amendment?

Go ahead, Mr. McKay.

[John McKay, Liberal, Scarborough—Guildwood, ON]

First of all, I want to express my support for Mr. Julian's amendment. I think it's a good amendment. If you're going to study something you should study everything, all of the benefits, and not only the benefits but also the liabilities that flow from the resource itself and from energy resources generally. In principle it's certainly a good motion.

I also wanted to apologize to the witnesses. I would like to think that this was an exception. Regrettably, it's not an exception to the use and abuse of a committee by the Conservative government. As you can see, the Conservatives wish to call Mr. McGuinty and Mr. Trudeau as witnesses on an economic study, neither of whom have any discernible expertise in the area.

[Some hon. members]

Oh, oh!

[John McKay, Liberal, Scarborough—Guildwood, ON]

I think there's an acknowledgment and a demonstration by other members here that they are equally incompetent. They're not compellable and they would not particularly provide useful information. There's no MP here who actually has any expertise in that area.

First of all, I want to apologize. I would have like to have heard about the R and D innovation in the Canadian sector. I would have liked to have heard about other sectors of the Canadian economy and the R and D there, particularly of the energy sector, but I just wanted to express my support for Mr. Julian's motion, which I think is quite fair and balanced.

[The Chair, Conservative, Leon Benoit]

Are we ready for the question on the amendment?

(Amendment negatived: nays 6; yeas 5)

[The Chair, Conservative, Leon Benoit]

Now can we go to the main motion?

[John McKay, Liberal, Scarborough—Guildwood, ON]

I would like to move an amendment.

[The Chair, Conservative, Leon Benoit]

Go ahead, Mr. McKay.

[John McKay, Liberal, Scarborough—Guildwood, ON]

The amendment is as follows:That the committee conduct hearings on the economic benefits that flow from Alberta's energy sector and elsewhere across Canada and invite the Minister of Natural Resources to the committee to explain any comments that he might have and that the committee report its findings to the House in order to ensure that all members of Parliament and Canadians are informed of these economic benefits.

[The Chair, Conservative, Leon Benoit]

Do you have that written down, Mr. McKay?

[John McKay, Liberal, Scarborough—Guildwood, ON]

Yes.

[The Chair, Conservative, Leon Benoit]

We'll need it in writing.

[John McKay, Liberal, Scarborough—Guildwood, ON]

You didn't ask Mr. Julian for it in writing.

[The Chair, Conservative, Leon Benoit]

I actually did.

[John McKay, Liberal, Scarborough—Guildwood, ON]

I'm sure you'll be generous and give me a moment to write that out. Could I have a clean copy of the motion, please?

[The Chair, Conservative, Leon Benoit]

The clerk will read the motion with the amendments, explaining where the proposed amendment is. I would like to remind the opposition that it's been three-quarters of an hour now on this, and witnesses are waiting. Let's get back to the business of the committee.

[The Clerk of the Committee, Mr. Rémi Bourgault]

It would read:

That the committee

—and the part “in light of the comments by senior Liberal MP David McGuinty and Liberal leadership candidate Justin Trudeau” will be deleted—

conduct hearings on the economic benefits that flow from Alberta's energy sector across Canada

The sentence saying “that Members of Parliament David McGuinty and Justin Trudeau be invited as witnesses to explain their comments” will be changed to “that the Minister of Natural Resources be invited“, and then the continuation will be the same:

and that the Committee report its findings to the House in order to ensure that all Members of Parliament and Canadians are informed of these economic benefits.

[The Chair, Conservative, Leon Benoit]

You've heard the proposed amendment to the motion.

Mr. McKay, do you want to speak to the proposed amendment?

[John McKay, Liberal, Scarborough—Guildwood, ON]

Thank you for the opportunity, Chair, to speak to this motion.

It's clear that the Minister of Natural Resources would actually be a beneficial witness for the conducting of these hearings into the economic benefits. I know from his speeches, etc., that he is very interested in this particular field. He is the senior minister in Canada with regard to this field, and I'm sure that we as members of Parliament, and all Canadians, would benefit from his discussion with respect to both the economic benefits and the liabilities.

Possibly I should have amended it to include Mr. Julian's language with respect to the liabilities, which also are involved in the exploitation of these particular resources.