Evidence of meeting #65 for Natural Resources in the 41st Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was technology.

A recording is available from Parliament.

On the agenda

MPs speaking

Also speaking

Clerk of the Committee  Mr. Rémi Bourgault
Alex Bettencourt  Managing Director, SmartGrid Canada
Brenda Kenny  President and Chief Executive Officer, Canadian Energy Pipeline Association
Timothy Thompson  Representative, Chief Executive Officer, Borealis GeoPower Inc., Canadian Geothermal Energy Association
Donald Wharton  Vice-President, Policy and Sustainability, TransAlta Corporation

5:25 p.m.

Conservative

David Anderson Conservative Cypress Hills—Grasslands, SK

I'd like to change direction a bit.

Mr. Wharton, I wanted to follow up on Mr. Trost's line of questioning a bit here.

You said that Canadian utilities aren't the ones that usually develop the new technology; that competitors across the United States or the bigger companies do that. I'm just wondering, can you tell us what is the connection between them developing it and you using it? How do you get access to that? Are you given access to the latest and greatest technologies? How is that gap closed? And you're dealing with some of your competitors, of course.

5:25 p.m.

Vice-President, Policy and Sustainability, TransAlta Corporation

Donald Wharton

It's quite true. I wouldn't call it a gap, actually. I'd say it's a system that's developed over decades now. There are probably only a handful of companies that develop large generation facilities. You could count them on one hand: General Electric, Siemens, Alstom, Hitachi, right? Those are huge manufacturing companies that build the kind of equipment that power plants need, which is enormous and very small in volume, small in terms of the number of them required to power, say, even the North American industry.

The relationship has been very synergistic over the past and continues to be that way. Those companies do invest in research and development, they do make their money designing, developing, and building large-scale generation technologies. That, in most cases, would be uneconomic for utility companies to do. There are smaller examples of investment in R and D and smaller technologies, but, as I pointed out in my testimony, most of the work of utilities is around using those technologies efficiently and lowering the costs of doing so.

I think that's a good synergy, I think that's a good situation. I don't actually believe Canada needs to get into the manufacturing business in any significant way here. That's a workable mechanism globally, quite frankly.

5:25 p.m.

Conservative

David Anderson Conservative Cypress Hills—Grasslands, SK

Thank you.

Mr. Thompson, I just wanted to talk to you.

It sounds like your main challenge is actually convincing provincial utilities that you have a product that they should be using. I'm just wondering whether you have a plan for dealing with that. In earlier questions, it seemed like that's the main thing that's holding you back, trying to convince them that you've got a product that's apparently cheaper, you say, than some of the other products, and yet they don't want to use it. What are you doing to convince them that that's a poor decision?

5:25 p.m.

Representative, Chief Executive Officer, Borealis GeoPower Inc., Canadian Geothermal Energy Association

Timothy Thompson

Well, I have to be careful.

5:25 p.m.

Conservative

David Anderson Conservative Cypress Hills—Grasslands, SK

Is there anything innovative you can do? We're talking about innovation. What are the innovations that you're making to convince them?

5:25 p.m.

Representative, Chief Executive Officer, Borealis GeoPower Inc., Canadian Geothermal Energy Association

Timothy Thompson

I'm a developer so I'll use a practical example.

BC Hydro in the early seventies went of its own accord to drill its own geothermal wells, and if you know anything about the subsurface business, you should know that you should actually have some experience in it before you start. So the results of BC Hydro's experience was that they spent about $75 million—this is seventies money—on three wells that produced nothing. So their institutional memory around that experience, I think, is quite sharp.

What we try to do, both at the industry level and at the individual organization level, is convince them that the risk-return—a sort of cost-benefit analysis—can be influenced by applying new technologies. In our case, since we're dealing with subsurface reservoirs, we really are taking a lot of what has been learned from the oil sands, frankly, and reapplying it. So they're not necessarily new technologies in the sense that they've come out of nothing or that they've just been created. We've seen them used intelligently and productively in other applications. We want to repurpose them to change that cost-benefit ratio and if they believe that, which to some degree I can never force that belief, then they'll take us up on it. I can't explain why, but to date we have not been successful.

Does that answer your question?

5:30 p.m.

Conservative

David Anderson Conservative Cypress Hills—Grasslands, SK

Yes, I think so. Absolutely.

You seem to think that you have the geo-mapping information that you need. Have the government's programs helped you there at all? They have been primarily focused north of 60, I understand, but has the geo-mapping that has been done in the past, either by the government or privately, helped you in your arguments to promote your industry?

5:30 p.m.

Representative, Chief Executive Officer, Borealis GeoPower Inc., Canadian Geothermal Energy Association

Timothy Thompson

Those are two separate issues. The issue with the geo-mapping is that it has been done at a very broad level by the geological survey and typically oriented towards mining or hydrocarbon investigation. We actually look for different markers. There is some overlap.

It is of some utility if it's in the public domain. A lot of this information, however, is not in the public domain, so if it is private information, we have no access to it.

5:30 p.m.

Conservative

David Anderson Conservative Cypress Hills—Grasslands, SK

Do you have a recommendation for the committee?

I think the chairman is going to cut me off fairly quickly here.

5:30 p.m.

Representative, Chief Executive Officer, Borealis GeoPower Inc., Canadian Geothermal Energy Association

Timothy Thompson

The recommendation would be for the committee to support CanGEA's proposed mapping program for western Canada.

5:30 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Leon Benoit

Thank you, Mr. Anderson, and thank you all very much. I appreciate you all coming, Ms. Kenny, Mr. Thompson, Mr. Wharton, and Mr. Bettencourt.

Mr. Anderson.

5:30 p.m.

Conservative

David Anderson Conservative Cypress Hills—Grasslands, SK

Mr. Julian and I had a discussion at the beginning to suggest that perhaps we could open the witness list until Tuesday. There were some other people who may be interested in coming on to the supply and distribution side, if that's all right.

5:30 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Leon Benoit

Is it just till Tuesday? Is there agreement to do that?

5:30 p.m.

NDP

Jamie Nicholls NDP Vaudreuil—Soulanges, QC

There has been agreement on that.

5:30 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Leon Benoit

Okay. Thank you very much for that cooperation and we will have the witness list open again.

Thank you all very much. Have a good weekend in your constituencies doing your constituency work.

The meeting is adjourned.