Yes.
Evidence of meeting #78 for Natural Resources in the 41st Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was norway.
A recording is available from Parliament.
Evidence of meeting #78 for Natural Resources in the 41st Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was norway.
A recording is available from Parliament.
4:50 p.m.
NDP
Claude Gravelle NDP Nickel Belt, ON
—and the company that approves of these documents, what did you call them?
4:50 p.m.
President, Alberta Federation of Labour
One of them was Wood Mackenzie, which is a—
4:50 p.m.
President, Alberta Federation of Labour
No, it's a major energy consultancy based in Houston.
4:50 p.m.
NDP
Claude Gravelle NDP Nickel Belt, ON
Okay, so it's a right-wing organization.
All right, thank you.
Mr. Rolf, I'd like to ask you a question. I want to quote Mr. Willis, and I'm going to paraphrase because I'm not sure I got the whole line correctly. He said something like, “We don't know what it means to be an energy power”. I read The Tyee article that you wrote, so can you comment on not knowing what an energy power means?
4:50 p.m.
Engineer, As an Individual
I think I can, and my initial remark actually addressed that.
Canada, in my opinion, is like Norway: you will be, for hundreds of years, an exporting type of nation. That means you are an OPEC country, but you run the policy like you are an importing country.
I want to correct one thing for the committee. It sounds like you have the impression that it's a social democratic government that runs this policy in Norway. We are run exactly the same and the conservatives are in government, which we have proven several times since the early seventies. This makes sense to Norwegians, and if you want to get elected as a Norwegian politician, you'd better make sense to the Norwegian voter.
We create jobs; we take the wealth home. We invest in Canada in the tar sands when that makes sense, which is what Statoil has been doing over the last years. We try to do a good job in Canada, and do it in an environmentally friendly way. It's difficult; it costs money. We have it.
The key, in my opinion, in The Tyee article and everything I've learned since I learned to love Canada, is why doesn't Canada invest in itself, in Canadians?
When I lived there some [Inaudible--Editor] the people invested in the Caribbean, and the U.S. came up and invested. Now, when you run an economy in the interests of Washington, D.C., well, what do you expect?
Look at the OPEC type of countries and what they do, and divest. Get yourself a negotiating position and follow up on it. But you need to put people into the business, so you understand where the margins are going and who is taxing what.
The way you're living off royalties and licence fees, that is very hard, because you have to change your policy every time prices change in the world market. If you live in it as an investor, a co-investor, a co-risk taker, then you can keep a positive attitude and the businesses will stay with you. The oil companies will complain. ExxonMobil—back then it was called Esso Production—said that it would leave Norway when we increased the taxes. Our minister at the time looked around the table and said, “Nobody has left the room, so we probably didn't increase the taxes enough”. That's a story for you.
4:55 p.m.
Conservative
The Chair Conservative Leon Benoit
Thank you, Mr. Gravelle.
We now go to Mr. Calkins, followed by Monsieur Choquette and Mr. Leef.
Go ahead, Mr. Calkins, for up to five minutes.
4:55 p.m.
Conservative
Blaine Calkins Conservative Wetaskiwin, AB
Thank you, Mr. Chair.
Mr. Wiborg, I have a quick question for you about how the state of Norway is currently configured. Who owns the natural resources, the hydrocarbon resources, in the jurisdiction of Norway?
4:55 p.m.
Engineer, As an Individual
Every Norwegian born or due to be does, and then we—
4:55 p.m.
Conservative
Blaine Calkins Conservative Wetaskiwin, AB
Maybe you're not understanding my question. My question is, from a government jurisdictional perspective, who owns it? When you say “every Norwegian”, you mean the Government of Norway on behalf of the people of Norway. Is that correct?
4:55 p.m.
Engineer, As an Individual
The Government of Norway owns it and through it every Norwegian voting and every future Norwegian owns the resource.
4:55 p.m.
Conservative
Blaine Calkins Conservative Wetaskiwin, AB
Thanks, Mr. Wiborg. That's the question I had.
We heard from Mr. Nicholls earlier today that Canada should take lessons from Norway about how to do this. From that perspective, in Norway the jurisdiction is the federal Norwegian government, which owns the resource on behalf of the people of Norway.
Mr. Mintz and Mr. Willis, I'd be interested in how that would play out here, given the fact that we've had some attempts at nationalizing energy in Canada and have seen what the result was economically.
4:55 p.m.
Director and Palmer Chair in Public Policy, School of Public Policy, University of Calgary, As an Individual
Actually, when I first heard the question I was wondering whether I was in the right building—whether I was in the Alberta legislature at this point—because this is a provincial issue.
As you might know, I did a study for the Stelmach government, back five years ago, arguing that Alberta needed to save more. I believe in the endowment approach, which is why I said Norway is a poster child. I was just talking about their management of resources; I think it's a very good example. They are not the only country that has done a better job of this; there are others too. But it was for the Alberta government that I did that report.
At the federal level, there are some corporate tax revenues you might get from the oil and gas industry, but with corporate taxes you're not talking about the same sorts of revenues as with royalties. Royalty policy is very much the provincial domain. One can criticize whether royalties are enough in Alberta or not, but that's something for the Alberta government to deal with.
4:55 p.m.
Conservative
Blaine Calkins Conservative Wetaskiwin, AB
Mr. Willis, from the chamber's perspective, although I know you're here at the national level, I'd like to ask you a little bit about labour. I understand the notion of creating value-added jobs. There are tremendous examples of value-added jobs in my constituency in central Alberta, with the ethylene plants there and the jobs they have created, but not every drop of natural gas liquids is stripped off in order to produce commodities that are needed there.
I'm an Alberta MP, and the biggest problem I'm met with by employers is labour. It's fine to say that we can create value-added jobs up the chain through implementing some policy or whatever the case might be, but at the end of the day, is there really anybody able to come and work? In Alberta, one of the biggest imports we have is labour from outside Alberta to come and do this work. There aren't enough people now to do the work that we have slated in Alberta, and that's just on the extraction and the pipeline side, without counting the value-added side.
Mr. Willis, do you have anything that could help me as an Alberta MP or help this committee understand the labour shortage? We're facing a labour shortage and we're talking about creating jobs. Alberta has one of the lowest unemployment rates in the country.
5 p.m.
President, Alberta Federation of Labour
Why don't you ask the labour guy the question about labour? That would be a radical idea.
5 p.m.
Conservative
5 p.m.
Director, Natural Resources and Environmental Policy, Canadian Chamber of Commerce
I'll keep my remarks fairly brief. The Canadian Chamber of Commerce views the skills crisis facing the Canadian economy right now as the single biggest challenge facing the country.
Nowhere is that problem more acute than in Alberta. I think there are opportunities to be found in keeping jobs at home and upgrading within the province.
I couldn't speak to the machinations that would be required to nationalize the resource at this point. As well—
5 p.m.
Conservative
5 p.m.
Director, Natural Resources and Environmental Policy, Canadian Chamber of Commerce
Yes, that would pose some constitutional issues.
I have a great deal of respect for...but if you can divorce the Norwegian model.... In Norwegian politics, people don't have a problem enacting public policy that stings a little bit, that actually has sufficient traction to change behaviour.
5 p.m.
Director, Natural Resources and Environmental Policy, Canadian Chamber of Commerce
Well, it could be. But it is obviously the biggest challenge facing your jurisdiction with respect to....