Natural Resources Committee on Oct. 19th, 2011

[John Percival]

Not exactly. It gives us a clue as to where those units are. Once people go on the ground, they observe those rocks and determine that they're the right kinds of rocks to host nickel potential. Then you can use this kind of information to extrapolate into relatively unknown areas and say that what we saw there was purple on this map, so those purple units probably go off in that direction. That allows us to get more value from our observations; we can extend those observations out.

[Dick Harris, Conservative, Cariboo—Prince George, BC]

So your work, the geomapping that your department does, is all readily accessible for people who are interested in possibly making some investments in mining, or exploring mining possibilities and mineral possibilities. They can access that.

Do you charge them a fee when they come in looking for some information on a certain area?

[John Percival]

No. All of the information is web accessible for free. We have a fairly sophisticated delivery system where the user can choose a box on a map of Canada and download all of that information at high resolution and then use it in his own geographic information system to make decisions.

[Dick Harris, Conservative, Cariboo—Prince George, BC]

Do I have any time? Okay.

This sounds like a pretty valuable program to anybody interested in potential mining or mineral exploration. I guess the question is, how is the GEM program expected to affect future investment in Canada's northern regions? What is the realistic expectation of how the work you do is going to affect exploration? Do you see it as a real—pardon the pun—bedrock of any exploration that goes on there?

[Dr. Brian Gray]

I can start at a high level, and either Dr. Scott or Dr. Percival can provide a little more detail.

In southern Canada we have some experience with what every dollar spent by the Geological Survey of Canada leads to in real economic activity.

Most recently, the Prospectors and Developers Association of Canada had a consultant do a report to analyze the so-what question: you're doing this interesting science, but does it amount to anything? The rubric it developed for southern Canada is not perfect but it's the best estimate. Every dollar the GSC spends on geomapping geological survey information—there's a time lag, and it's not the next year, but it's within years after—results in $5 worth of exploration.

John used the analogy of the needle in the haystack. So with geological mapping, you've got the giant country of Canada, and these professional geologists, in the mapping process, create the haystacks at the appropriate, sufficient level. Without the haystacks, industry would find it very risky to go out and just try to prospect on its own. We identify the haystacks. That reduces the risk enough that the industry comes in and takes the risk economically to find the needle. Extrapolating that from the one to five to what that means in actual mining development—because that's just one to five on exploration—the rubric goes to $125. So every dollar spent leads to $125 worth of mining development. That one has a lot more variance in the estimate. You could take or leave that $125.

So we don't know. We're looking at southern Canada and the history there. We don't know if the one to five rubric on exploration will apply. One thing's for certain: there will be a greater lag factor, in my opinion, because there are no roads and there are no boats and planes that are readily accessible. These are vast areas, and it's difficult to get to these areas. It's very expensive, and once you get there, there's not the infrastructure. You can't stay at a hotel. You can't go from this exploration point down the road 100 kilometres in a car.

[Dick Harris, Conservative, Cariboo—Prince George, BC]

Thank you. That's really informative.

[The Chair, Conservative, Leon Benoit]

Thank you, Mr. Gray. Thank you, Mr. Harris.

We go now to Madame Day, for up to five minutes.

[Anne-Marie Day, NDP, Charlesbourg—Haute-Saint-Charles, QC]

Good day. Thank you for being here today.

I am amazed to see all of Canada on a single 8.5-inch by 11-inch page. But Canada is one of the world’s largest countries. I am always surprised. I suppose this is not an in-depth mapping and image to scale. It’s more of a metaphorical mapping. I have numerous questions. Because of this, I will be throwing all kinds of questions at the witnesses.

First of all, a complete mapping within the next five years, which is the allotted timeframe, will certainly prove impossible. My first question concerns depth. How far do we go? I suppose it’s not to scale. We don’t go to the centre of the earth. We have to stop somewhere. What technology is available today and how far does it allow us to go? I suppose core-drilling is a bit obsolete. Perhaps we still see some target sampling.

My second question concerns communities from a sociological point of view. Aboriginal communities have been mentioned. I’d like to talk about my father-in-law who became a businessman even though he had only completed grade seven. He devoted all of his life to his business. He could neither read nor write but people around him were willing to help.

I am also talking about agriculture. In this country, agriculture was developed because some experts were willing to help people who didn’t always know what to do. The experts intervened, supported them and helped them develop their business. We know that aboriginal community members do not necessarily have the level of training that you have. Surely not. They have much to do as far as training goes. We also do not want them to be employed only in lower-end jobs as for example, in maintenance work. We want them to grow. There are young entrepreneurs among them.

A bit earlier, you spoke of guides and of individuals who were familiar with the territory. This is very interesting. How will you support them so that they can develop their own economy while taking part in it? What are the special challenges as well as the obstacles involved? I’m not talking about the weather, marine animals and other such things. What are the greatest challenges that you have to face in mapping?

Part of the program is publicly funded. We are talking about $100 million in tax money. As for pay-back for Canadians, are the companies that obtain data mostly Canadian businesses or will we be selling data to the highest bidder whatever the company? I believe there aren’t many international and Canadian players in this field. I’m sorry; I’m asking a lot of questions.

This is public data. If, for example, we had a system whereby data was under lock and key, it might be more difficult for you to understand. Right now, there is a bill pending and, if I use the data, I will have to destroy it after a while. How will you inform operators and companies so that they can have access to this data?

Concerning the development of the far north—

[The Chair, Conservative, Leon Benoit]

Yes, the bells are ringing. We're just finding out what the vote is about and I'll let you know.

Continue, please, Madam Day.

[Anne-Marie Day, NDP, Charlesbourg—Haute-Saint-Charles, QC]

Mr. Chair, will you be allowing a few more minutes so that I may finish or are we going to vote?

[David McGuinty, Liberal, Ottawa South, ON]

A point of order, Mr. Chair.

[The Chair, Conservative, Leon Benoit]

Mr. McGuinty, go ahead.

[David McGuinty, Liberal, Ottawa South, ON]

I didn't think it was discretionary. I thought as soon as the bells began ringing it was mandatory to suspend the work of the committee, unless you have the unanimous consent of all members of the committee.

[The Chair, Conservative, Leon Benoit]

I've never heard of a rule like that, but we can find out.

Apparently there is a vote, so unfortunately we will have to suspend the meeting. There's probably no point in coming back.

But could we quickly deal with the budget for witnesses to come in the future? It would take two minutes or so.

[Anne-Marie Day, NDP, Charlesbourg—Haute-Saint-Charles, QC]

Will the witnesses be coming back?

[The Chair, Conservative, Leon Benoit]

It's a 30-minute bell. We want to get going, but we have a budget proposed. It's a tentative budget for witness expenses for this study, and the total amount of the budget—we have it broken down—is $73,000.

Is there need for further discussion on that? Do you want to see it? Do you want to just approve the budget?

[An hon. member]

No, I'd like to see it.

[The Chair, Conservative, Leon Benoit]

Okay. We're not going to be able to deal with it now.

On a point of order, Mr. Trost.

[Bradley Trost, Conservative, Saskatoon—Humboldt, SK]

If the members would be fine with it, I would suggest that we let Madam Day finish her round. It's only two more minutes. If she wants to finish her round, we would have a complete round, if all members are in agreement with that.

Do you mind if she finishes, David?

[The Chair, Conservative, Leon Benoit]

Okay, apparently we do need unanimous consent to continue. Mr. McGuinty is not willing to offer that consent, I understand.

[David McGuinty, Liberal, Ottawa South, ON]

I'm being convened by my whip. I have to go.

[The Chair, Conservative, Leon Benoit]

Okay. We had better stick with that.

What about, quickly, the budget?

[Claude Gravelle, NDP, Nickel Belt, ON]

Can we get a breakdown of the budget? Are these witnesses going to come back so we can finish?

[The Chair, Conservative, Leon Benoit]

The committee can discuss that. We can't do it right now.

[Claude Gravelle, NDP, Nickel Belt, ON]

We can invite them back. We can. We will.