Evidence of meeting #81 for Natural Resources in the 41st Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was propane.
A recording is available from Parliament.
4:55 p.m.
NDP
Claude Gravelle NDP Nickel Belt, ON
Thank you, Mr. Chair.
Mr. Harrison, the cost of solar panels has been dropping drastically. What is the potential for solar generation in Canada as an alternative source of energy for homes, cities, and industry?
4:55 p.m.
Professor, Department of Mechanical and Materials Engineering, Queen's University, As an Individual
I am assuming you're talking about the cost reductions that are showing up in photovoltaics and direct conversion to electricity. Certainly there has been a dramatic cost reduction, largely brought about by the marketplace, spurred on by the Chinese. Low-cost photovoltaic devices are available.
In the last five years we've seen a sixfold cost reduction, down to the point where systems are being installed at $1 a peak watt. For example, in Ontario, feed-in tariffs make it an incredibly lucrative proposition to install solar thermal.
No technical issues are related to the use of PV or solar thermal in Canada. We have a very good solar market. I'm very interested to hear the discussion about northern communities. There are plans to possibly replicate in Whitehorse the district heating system that exists near Calgary, a 56-site community.
One thing that's not appreciated is that the availability of solar energy on an annual basis is relatively constant across Canada, and our northern communities receive large amounts of solar energy. With Canada's lead in seasonal storage, we can store energy in the summer and use it during the winter, which is a wonderful opportunity for northern communities. The heat is stored in the ground and is tied to a district heating system, not unlike what is being used in many northern communities.
4:55 p.m.
Professor, Department of Mechanical and Materials Engineering, Queen's University, As an Individual
There are areas of technology where Canada has some leads. The Canadian industry is somewhat fledgling, with 50% of the current solar thermal technology being exported, primarily to the U.S. Our solar air heating technology is unique in the world, and that represents a large export market.
The PV industry has a few strong players, and they are now starting to export as well.
4:55 p.m.
NDP
Claude Gravelle NDP Nickel Belt, ON
Thank you.
Mr. Facette, is propane less of a pollutant than diesel?
May 9th, 2013 / 5 p.m.
President and Chief Executive Officer, Canadian Propane Association
Yes.
5 p.m.
NDP
Claude Gravelle NDP Nickel Belt, ON
You mentioned the Ring of Fire. What could the Ring of Fire do with propane instead of diesel?
5 p.m.
President and Chief Executive Officer, Canadian Propane Association
Lots. How much time do you have? I only have about two minutes left.
To start, if you're looking strictly at mining activity, you're looking at a source of heat for a work camp, including fuel for cooking and mine shaft heating that could replace diesel.
In terms of the Ring of Fire being a potential community, and developing a community around it, you're looking at providing people who would want to be there on a more regular basis with many of their energy needs, be that home or business. Propane can heat your home, your water, operate your water pump, your drier, your fireplaces, do your cooking, and all the rest of it. Those are two aspects of the potential that propane has in that region now referred to as the Ring of Fire.
5 p.m.
NDP
Claude Gravelle NDP Nickel Belt, ON
If I hear you correctly, it would be less polluting if we were to use propane in the Ring of Fire, and it would be cost efficient.
5 p.m.
President and Chief Executive Officer, Canadian Propane Association
Right now it depends on how much you buy. It's like any other commodity in the open market, but propane is about 40% cheaper off the shelf than diesel right now on the market.
5 p.m.
NDP
5 p.m.
President and Chief Executive Officer, Canadian Propane Association
The transportation link to that region of Ontario is the big topic of debate between Ottawa and Queen's Park. Is it going to be a road that costs $500 million, or is it going to be rail?
Right now, propane is transported both by rail and truck, and if you're looking at taking it by truck off the CN line, you're looking at about a 300 kilometre to 400 kilometre run. Our guys would do that with no problem at all right now, so yes, storage is no problem whatsoever.
5 p.m.
Conservative
The Chair Conservative Leon Benoit
Thank you, Mr. Gravelle.
We will go now to Mr. Leef, followed by Monsieur Blanchette and then Mr. Calkins.
Go ahead, Mr. Leef, for up to five minutes.
5 p.m.
Conservative
Ryan Leef Conservative Yukon, YT
Thank you, Mr. Chair.
Mr. Trost asked almost every question I was going to ask with respect to propane. I represent the Yukon, and being up there, I heat portions of my home with propane, and I also use it for showers and cooking. It works well.
You mentioned that there are some locations out of Winnipeg to which you are able to fly propane. Transport Canada gives some permits. How difficult is that, and are there ways we can enhance that?
Of course, I'm thinking really about right across the north. In rural, remote Canada there are a lot of communities, not exclusively in the north but right across Canada, that have only fly-in access and that are running off diesel right now. And we know the prices. And we know the clean energy part of it. Are there things you can recommend to reduce red tape, at least on that front, and to make it safer and more available for fly-in locations?
5 p.m.
President and Chief Executive Officer, Canadian Propane Association
I think first of all you have to consider safety. If you're flying in any fuel, you want to make sure safety's first and paramount. The current Transport Canada guidelines have a ceiling on the types of cylinders that we can fly up. I don't have them right in front of me. I could get them for you.
In terms of reducing any kind of red tape to facilitate it more, it may not necessarily be a question of reducing the red tape as much as it is a question of getting people to think about propane in that way. I can give you a real example. When I spoke to an official with FedNor in Northern Ontario, I was the first one to speak to him about propane in the Ring of Fire. No one had talked to him about it. So it requires people to think differently and to look for alternatives in the same light they would look to diesel, in that respect.
5 p.m.
Conservative
Ryan Leef Conservative Yukon, YT
How is the technology for propane for extremely cold climates? I have a fairly rough set-up so at 35 or 40 degrees below zero, the trouble lights keep going off, but on a large scale, industrially in extremely cold climates, it works well?
5 p.m.
President and Chief Executive Officer, Canadian Propane Association
They used to say that at minus 42 degrees propane would freeze. With the new vaporizers they now have, it's not a problem anymore.
5 p.m.
Conservative
Ryan Leef Conservative Yukon, YT
Okay. Excellent.
Mr. Harrison, you talked about solar projects. Of course, we have some going on in the Yukon. One thing you mentioned is the ability of solar to reduce greenhouse gases, and you noticed a significant megatonne reduction. I certainly see the value of solar energy for that purpose.
We heard this week, though, from one of our witnesses that the energy pie is getting bigger. So the need for energy is not going to be reduced. I'm just curious about your perspective on framing the introduction of any greener technology as leading to an ultimate end result of GHG reduction if that energy pie is going to get bigger. The growth of fossil fuels is going to increase and there will be an increase in the growth of each clean renewable resource as well.
I'm just worried, in a way. If there is growth in solar and geothermal and biomass but that pie just gets bigger, we actually don't see that immediate reduction in greenhouses gases. People might instantly make a link and say that solar wasn't the solution. I know that's not the case, but how do we get that message out to the public? What are some of your thoughts on that concept, that the energy pie is getting bigger?
5:05 p.m.
Professor, Department of Mechanical and Materials Engineering, Queen's University, As an Individual
There is evidence to show that as we improve the efficiency of our end use—so as houses become more efficient—there is a tendency for people to buy bigger houses. So the average price or size of houses has increased over the last decade. Even though the efficiency has increased, the actual energy consumption has gone up. Obviously, there has to be a limit to unbridled growth in all sectors. Clearly, I think what we have to realize is that the best approach here is to have a diversified energy structure. There has been lots of talk about the energy grid, energy diversity, and various sources. I believe we have a responsibility to try to have this mixture. I believe it provides energy security in the “energy patch”, if you will.
The increase in solar energy and alternative renewable energies is not going to add to greenhouse gas emissions, generally. There are variations depending on the technology, but it's very well held that solar photovoltaic electricity and solar thermal are effectively benign when it comes to CO2 production. I think the best approach here is to have a mix and to try to look for niche markets where we can apply these technologies. One of them I've mentioned is seasonal storage of solar energy in remote communities. It looks like a wonderful application that has a good potential in Canada. Applying these technologies in appropriate niche markets, I think, is the best approach.
5:05 p.m.
Conservative
The Chair Conservative Leon Benoit
Thank you, Mr. Leef.
Monsieur Blanchette, you have up to five minutes. Go ahead, please.
5:05 p.m.
NDP
Denis Blanchette NDP Louis-Hébert, QC
Thank you, Mr. Chair.
My first question is for Mr. Cloutier.
I am from the Quebec City region, where Ultramar is very important. At some point, you said that the Ultramar refinery was beginning to prepare. Could you explain what you meant by that?
5:05 p.m.
National Representative, Energy Quebec, Refinery of Suncor Energy of Montreal, Communications, Energy and Paperworkers Union of Canada-Quebec
People are currently in discussions with Canterm and Shell in order to acquire storage tanks in Montreal. They are also discussing shipping the Montreal-stored crude oil to Quebec City, either by boat, train or truck.
In addition, in the case of the Enbridge project, refineries at some point had to make a commitment regarding the quantity they would take under the project. Ultramar, like Suncor and others, committed to take a certain quantity from the pipeline.
5:05 p.m.
NDP
Denis Blanchette NDP Louis-Hébert, QC
Contrary to Suncor's units, these are not units for processing types of oil other than those the companies can already process. Am I wrong?