Natural Resources Committee on Feb. 25th, 2014

[Chief Madeleine Paul]

The main concerns that our people have are the potential environmental impacts that we'll have on the water, firstly, because of where it's located, the watershed that it's affecting. We don't know what these rare earths can do to the water yet. We don't have a lot of study on that. That's the main concern, but we do have a lot of other concerns, like the traditional use of the land. What is that going to be for our future generations, because it's so central to where our traditional land is? This whole project is leaving a major footprint on our territory.

For support from the federal government, there has been no support. The lack of consultation from the government is very clear, and we need resources to be able to address this because it's so unknown to us as a first nations community, let alone the Canadian government. There definitely has to be support from the federal government in this project because it's so new to Canada.

[Christine Moore, NDP, Abitibi—Témiscamingue, QC]

Do you have some kind of idea of a precise thing that the federal government can do? Do you think you should have some kind of councillor who will help you to deal with this mine? What do you think the federal government could do to improve our relations with first nations when they have to deal with mines? Do you have some kind of idea you can propose?

[Chief Madeleine Paul]

What we requested in our letter to the Minister of the Environment is accepting us to be part of a joint review panel so that we can be part of the whole process of reviewing the potential impacts of this mine. This is just one example of how the government can assist first nations. We need to be part of the process.

[Christine Moore, NDP, Abitibi—Témiscamingue, QC]

At this time I know it's not really easy, but how were you able to find information about rare earth mining? It was probably the first time you ever heard about that, when the project started. How and where did you get the information about the technical aspects of rare earth mining?

[Chief Madeleine Paul]

Because our resources are so limited, we have a small technical team that was able to assist us in giving us some information. MiningWatch Canada has been a tremendous help to our first nations because we knew nothing about rare earths until this project came to our attention in our territory.

[Christine Moore, NDP, Abitibi—Témiscamingue, QC]

Did you receive any financial aid from the federal government to be able to do this research and get the information or to hire people to give you advice?

[Chief Madeleine Paul]

No, we haven't received any funds from the government. The only funds we've received were through the MOU that we signed with Matamec to address our cultural socio-economic study, the Algonquin study that we did. Those are the only funds we received.

The government has never accommodated us in any way in regard to this project, to support us financially, to even address research on it, or any concerns.

[Christine Moore, NDP, Abitibi—Témiscamingue, QC]

How do you think that the whole process for a first nation could be improved by the federal government? How do you think first nations that have to deal with this in the future could be helped by the federal government? Do you think they need money to be able to deal with that?

[Chief Madeleine Paul]

Yes, for sure, because we don't have our own sources of revenue that we can use to address these situations that come to our communities.... The government could assist us financially to address the research. Going through the processes of understanding what it means is very important to any first nation in Canada. Every first nation in Canada is affected in some form by exploration, by the exploitation of resources on our territories. So it's very much needed.

[Christine Moore, NDP, Abitibi—Témiscamingue, QC]

Do you think if you had received this help you would have been able to do the process more quickly? What I heard is that sometimes you have to find help, so it takes more time to get the information you need to find answers. Do you think getting the money would improve the process?

[Chief Madeleine Paul]

Sure, because when you have the financial capacity to hire the experts you need, it's going to go much faster than trying to figure it out on your own, guaranteed.

[Christine Moore, NDP, Abitibi—Témiscamingue, QC]

Thank you so much, Chief Paul, for your answer.

[The Chair, Conservative, Leon Benoit]

Thank you Ms. Moore.

We go now finally to Mr. Regan for up to seven minutes.

Go ahead please, sir.

[Geoff Regan, Liberal, Halifax West, NS]

Thank you very much, Mr. Chairman.

I'm sorry that we have so many witnesses jammed into what really is a very small time, but I'd better get started because I only have seven minutes.

Let me ask you, Mr. Neatby, to start off with. You talked about the need for public support for what you're doing particularly in terms of capital markets and confidence in the capital markets. What do you see this as meaning? What are the issues in terms of competition for Canada with companies like those in Australia? How critical will this be? What do you see developing? Where is investment going at this point and how difficult is it for Canadian companies?

[Pierre Neatby]

There are two things I'd like to point out. Canada has a history of mining excellence and companies that are looking for rare earth products outside of China are looking for a culturally, politically stable country to invest in, and Canada fits that description. Some of the other projects that we're competing against, whether they be in South Africa, Kyrgyzstan.... Those countries may not be seen as being as politically stable as a Canada, or a U.S., or an Australia. So having the Canadian government make a signal to these potential investors that Canada is supportive of rare earths would help us tremendously in attracting that investment.

For example, the Australian government has made a public statement that they want to be the supplier of rare earths to Japan. That is a strong, bold statement. I don't think it's very costly to make that statement but it certainly rings in Japan in a very positive way and we'd like to see that same kind of statement from the Canadian government.

[Geoff Regan, Liberal, Halifax West, NS]

How important—in addition to that—would R and D support be and what do you see the key areas of research and development being?

[Pierre Neatby]

I think as was mentioned earlier, most of the rare earth deposits are different, with different mineralogy. Some of that mineralogy is relatively new with respect to processing rare earths. I think research and development in processing these minerals, which contain rare earths, would be very valuable in accelerating the pace of development for the Canadian rare earth industry.

I think that Canadian companies that are represented here today are spending large amounts of money in this development, but I think that the Canadian government can help in funding research that would help the whole industry accelerate and raise the level of this industry.

[Geoff Regan, Liberal, Halifax West, NS]

Thank you very much.

Professor Chakhmouradian, if you were asked to give the top three areas of research that you think need to be done or engaged in, what would they be?

[Dr. Anton Chakhmouradian]

Do you mean in Canada?

[Geoff Regan, Liberal, Halifax West, NS]

In relation to rare earth elements, yes.

[Dr. Anton Chakhmouradian]

But specifically in Canada?

[Geoff Regan, Liberal, Halifax West, NS]

Yes.

[Dr. Anton Chakhmouradian]

Specifically in Canada, investing in recycling is not going to work particularly efficiently just because of the low population density.

Looking into substitute materials, as they're doing in Japan, will not be a particularly efficient approach to the existing or looming shortages of rare earth elements either, just because of the current lack of expertise in Canadian academia.

Ultimately, I think the emphasis should be put on exploration. In my opinion, Canada at this point has not come up with a competitive exploration target that would place Canada on the map in terms of rare earth mining and extraction.

The problem, as I've already emphasized, is the unconventionality of the materials being proposed as a source of rare earth metals by current or active advanced projects, including Nechalacho, Strange Lake, Kipawa, and all of these projects. The type of material they're proposing as a source of rare earth metals has not demonstrated its amenability to profitable recovery of rare earth elements on a commercial basis to date.

I think the Canadian government, as well as the provincial and territorial governments, should keep investing into looking for new projects, into looking outside the box, so to speak, rather than focusing on something that's already known as a localized concentration of rare metals, including rare earth metals, across this country.

That's precisely what has been happening in the past three decades. Companies have been focusing on things that are already in existence, that are already known, as these potential rare earth deposits. I think we should start looking outside the box and start supporting research and training programs to educate the exploration community as well as the rare earth community in general about some of the intricacies and complexities involved in exploring for rare earth elements, as well as in all of the subsequent work, such as figuring out the extraction codes for rare earth metals from these types of ores.

Of course, as Pierre Neatby already emphasized, it would be extremely beneficial for Canada to look into the existing proposed rare earth resources to see if they can be processed profitably on a commercial basis. In that sense, the federal government could come up with support for these types of initiatives and sponsor, to a degree, the research involved in figuring out these technical issues.

[Geoff Regan, Liberal, Halifax West, NS]

Thank you.

Mr. Neatby, we heard from Chief Paul the fact that apparently the Government of Canada has not been in touch with her first nation at all in relation to proposed projects in that area, the Kipawa area. Is this something that you see elsewhere? I mean, I find this alarming, but what would you expect of the Government of Canada in terms of its duty to consult and accommodate? When do you think it ought to be getting involved in these projects or with these communities?

[The Chair, Conservative, Leon Benoit]

Thank you, Mr. Regan.

We'll need a very brief answer, please. Go ahead, Mr. Neatby.