Evidence of meeting #20 for Natural Resources in the 41st Parliament, 2nd Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was benefits.
A recording is available from Parliament.
Chief Executive Officer, Pond Biofuels Inc.
The issue of social licence is obviously very difficult. I run a business and we view it very much as a business. For us at Pond, clearly legislation that values carbon is going to be very helpful to our business, but we understand that the industrial complex globally is also very important for Canada to take into account as to what that means.
I personally think that the investment community is going to drive what it requires out of industry, and I think we're seeing that in a big way. I think that will help facilitate government's actions on carbon policy and emissions. I think that is becoming a fact of life. I think that is going to be driven globally. That's what we're seeing. We are seeing people in parts of the world that have much more tremendous problems with carbon emissions than we have in Canada in having to deal with them. There are areas like China with mass emission problems. We have ENN investing in Ferus facilities. I think that's a reflection of their philosophy. We have CalPERS demanding people disclose what their carbon emissions are and what they're doing about them.
I think it's governments and industry in a reflection. I think our industry is maturing and understands it has to value these things and include them in their economic modelling. I think it's a combination of forces, personally.
Associate Professor, University of Toronto, Geography Department, As an Individual
Yes, quickly.
My answer will be a bit strange to you, but if you believe, like me, that overall hydrocarbons have created more benefits than problems, then I always have a problem with people who give themselves the right to block what I see as progress. What is the social licence to block development? What is the social licence to block economic well-being? What is the social licence that gives you the right to prevent reforesting the planet by developing fossil fuels further? What is the social licence to always focus on one problem by overlooking all the other benefits?
I think governments need to strike a balance between progress and problems. Yes, you might argue that.... I'm not going to address the scope of the study that is reviewed here, but I think that this whole discourse around social licence is too one-sided for my taste.
Liberal
Geoff Regan Liberal Halifax West, NS
On that, Mr. Desrochers, let me just ask you something.
I'm sure you're aware of the kinds of air pollution that exists in some of the major cities in China, which of course is a result of the burning of fossil fuels. Of course, once that is in the air, it goes all around the world. I guess the question is, is it conceivable to you that we could produce so much greenhouse gases on this planet, that humans can do that, seven billion of us, that it could exceed the capacity of our oceans and those forests of which you have spoken to absorb it?
Associate Professor, University of Toronto, Geography Department, As an Individual
What if I told you that air pollution in Toronto a century ago was actually worse than in Beijing today.
Liberal
Associate Professor, University of Toronto, Geography Department, As an Individual
No, I'm just....
All economies tend to get dirtier as they develop. People are willing to make trade-offs in China. My wife is Japanese, but she's a China specialist. She lived there 25 years ago and she saw how poor people were and how happy they were to develop those fossil fuels. So, yes, Chinese cities today are almost but not as dirty as, let's say, Montreal or Toronto were a century ago. People are willing to make those trade-offs to have electricity, to have running water, to have a sewage system that works.
So if the past is any indication, there will be progress. There will be innovation. We heard about the natural gas industry this morning. But the papers that I was mentioning at the beginning, this is the whole history of the energy sector turning waste into wealth, creating wealth out of what used to be a pollution problem. Let's not block things. Let's focus instead on human creativity and again creating wealth out of what are problems.
Conservative
The Chair Conservative Leon Benoit
Thank you very much, Mr. Regan. Unfortunately, we're out of time for you.
We will start the five-minute round with Mr. Calkins, followed by Mr. Leef, and then Ms. Leslie.
Go ahead, please, Mr. Calkins.
Conservative
Blaine Calkins Conservative Wetaskiwin, AB
Thanks, Chair.
I just want to make a quick comment to Mr. Desrochers.
I'm looking at the slide where it says that people look different now. The average adult male in 1850 was 5 feet, 7.4 inches tall. Today he's 5 feet, 9.5 inches, and 191 pounds.
I'm just wondering if you've let Air Canada or WestJet know about these size differences—
Conservative
Blaine Calkins Conservative Wetaskiwin, AB
—and about the according seating arrangements on the aircraft. If I were 5 foot 7 and 149 pounds, I could fly comfortably.
All kidding aside, I really do appreciate the insights you have.
Mr. Holm, I do have some questions very specifically for you. You talked about your photo-bioreactor, your applications, and all the aspects of refining and processing, and that it's a unique Canadian technology. We have the technology and so on here to back that up. That has all come about because of what Mr. Desrochers says: we've evolved out of the agricultural age through the industrial age. We're now in the information age. Because we have more people in our universities and colleges who are thinking, we have people who are able to do more than just get by on subsistence living, which is what we used to do hundreds of years ago.
I'm wondering if you could expand on the link that your company has had between universities and colleges and the ability to get these new technologies once they're developed and commercialized. I'm sure Mr. Desrochers could speak to that more broadly as well.
As well, can you talk about the intellectual property regime and how important that is? I believe the value in your company isn't so much in the ability to actually do what your company does. I believe the value in your company is probably based on the fact that you have some intellectual property that you've patented and you have a unique technology that will solve it. I believe that's where the real true value in this comes.
Mr. Desrochers, perhaps more broadly, you spoke about the carbon side of things, but I firmly believe that in terms of the intellectual property aspect, the development of our modern societies today has come about because of the technological advances that wouldn't have come about if we hadn't had stringent intellectual property regimes that provided for those opportunities to happen.
Perhaps you guys could comment on those aspects of your companies and in the broader context.
Chief Executive Officer, Pond Biofuels Inc.
To start with the more micro analysis, your point is a very good one. Our value is the fact that our founders are incredibly talented people. Their backgrounds are industry photonics and the pharmaceutical industry, and that leads definitely to processes and intellectual property processes.
Each of those two individuals also spent time at the University of Toronto and integrating businesses with University of Toronto programs. They have a unique combination of skills, and there's a direct relationship right back to the University of Toronto. A lot of the photonics expertise we have was done by people who were professors at the University of Toronto. Former members of that faculty are today on our scientific advisory committee.
Again, speaking to our focus as a development company and a technology company, it was founded on the strengths of very creative, very smart people applying technologies in a unique way to address a problem that we see in the world today, which is directly on point with what Mr. Desrochers says about people evolving and using technologies and applying them in unique ways and developing them for social good and economic good.
For us, we do have the challenge of being a small company trying to have large companies adopt and use our technologies or be prepared to spend research and development dollars to help get us to that next level. That is a challenge for a company like ours. It's also a challenge in an economy such as Canada's, which is small compared with the economies of the U.S. or China, for example, and probably a little less technologically focused given where a lot of the wealth in our country has been created.
So if that's helpful to you, or if that addresses your question—
Conservative
Blaine Calkins Conservative Wetaskiwin, AB
There's a pan-Canadian benefit, but there's a global benefit as well, in making sure that these.... Because of intellectual property and so on and the regimes we have, the development of these technologies obviously deals with environmental considerations. It has economic benefits, but also every new thing we discover leads to the next discovery.
Am I right, Mr. Desrochers?
Associate Professor, University of Toronto, Geography Department, As an Individual
You're completely right.
I would introduce a note of caution, though, about universities and intellectual property. This is an area that I actually studied a lot 15 years ago, but in the American context. The problem when universities get into the patent game is that historically they were given an exemption to steal ideas from left and right, and businesses were not bothering them. But a few American universities began patenting knowledge to try to create money out of it, and this created some side issues that are beyond the scope of this committee.
I would argue that, yes, intellectual property has a role with business, but I think the main role of universities is to produce bright students who can then work for that business, or professors who can consult with that business and leave them their property rights. I don't think universities should get involved too much with that.
Conservative
The Chair Conservative Leon Benoit
Thank you very much.
Thank you, Mr. Calkins.
We go now to Mr. Leef, for up to five minutes.
Conservative
Ryan Leef Conservative Yukon, YT
Thank you, Chair, and thank you to all our witnesses for some interesting presentations.
Chief Adam, I'm the member of Parliament for Yukon. The premise of this study of cross-country benefits for all Canadians is of course interesting from a Yukon perspective, because when we frame this discussion around development in the north, it is a question for our entire population, including our aboriginal and first nations people in Yukon.
One thing I have heard as their member of Parliament is that they want Yukon people for Yukon jobs. Of course, that centres around our first nations. Eleven of the fourteen first nations in our territory have signed final agreements.
The government has done a great job, both the territorial and the federal governments, of supporting them with financial resources to sign and secure IBAs, to develop communication plans to work with industry, to help them with the capacity development.
I appreciate the comments you made around the struggle to have the capacity, with the influx of development, to deal with the volume of applications with few staff. We have been recognizing those challenges and trying to support the capacity development of our first nations, at least in Yukon, to make sure that they have the capacity to deal with the opportunities before them.
It will be a continuing growth process, but some of the ways they have done this up north include investing in education and training, specifically around our college development with the Centre for Northern Innovation in Mining, to make sure that we meet that one real premise Yukoners have, which again is Yukon people for Yukon jobs: local people to get local opportunities, specific job training for the jobs that are available in high-demand fields, and well-paying jobs, not just underskilled jobs, but semi-skilled and highly skilled opportunities.
From that, we have seen our first nations achieve, have seen our development corporations, high-paying jobs and better-paying jobs in those fields that are available, an increase in graduates, an increase in enrolment rates at post-secondary educational institutions that focus on these.
I'm wondering three things.
First, does your first nation have a development corporation?
Do you have any of the members of your first nation working right now in oil sands and natural gas development in the area? If so, are they starting to achieve greater rates of job opportunities, better-paying jobs? Are they realizing those opportunities at all?
Are you seeing people of your first nation starting to move in that career direction? Are they asking for that? Are the colleges and institutions responding to that demand by providing greater opportunity for them to achieve that kind of training and realize local opportunities for local people?
Chief, Athabasca Chipewyan First Nation
In regard to our people moving in that direction, many of our people are employed in the oil and gas sector. As the chief, I always have to play a balancing act in respect to those who work in the oil and gas sector, and those who still live the traditional way of life.
In more ways than one, the Athabasca Chipewyan First Nation is heavily engaged in encouraging our young people to continue their education in order to get better trades and become better equipped to work in the workforce in this region.
We engage heavily in investing in education for our young people right now, but the fact remains that we are having difficulties in that area, because we have to send the majority of our young students out of the community of Fort Chip to better their education. The Fort Chip education level at this point is probably at one of the lowest rates for education being provided in Alberta and is probably the lowest in Canada, because the curriculum doesn't meet the needs of the first nation.
When we send our kids out of Fort Chip, the first thing they encounter is a lack of housing, the lack of resources to meet the demands of housing for them to stay in school, and second—
Conservative
Conservative
The Chair Conservative Leon Benoit
I'm sorry, Mr. Leef, you are out of time. We have to go on to our next questioner.
Thank you, Chief Adam.
Ms. Leslie, you have up to five minutes. Go ahead, please.
NDP
Megan Leslie NDP Halifax, NS
Thank you to all our witnesses.
Ms. Dobson, in your written submission I read in your conclusion, “Canada runs the risk of locking itself into a high-carbon development path”. Then you talk about diversifying our energy economy, which is something I love to talk about: our need to diversify our energy economy if we're to truly see benefits coming from all aspects of our energy economy.
Can you talk to us a little about this potential for lock-in and this need to diversify?
Economist, Alberta and the North, Pembina Institute
Sure.
There are certainly benefits to developing the oil sands; there are short-term benefits. But there are also costs and risks associated with, as I mentioned in the statement, locking ourselves potentially into this high-carbon development path.
Increasingly we are seeing countries around the world taking action to address climate change. We're seeing policies such as the low-carbon fuel standard, for example, in California, which is potentially going to limit the market we have for high-carbon fuel, which the oil sands is and which we need to recognize.
We feel it's very important to look at where the world is going, to acknowledge that countries around the world have agreed to take action to limit global warming to 2°C as much as we can, and to recognize that this is going to mean a lower carbon economy and think about what opportunities exist for Canada, about how we can be competitive within that economy.
As I mentioned, it's a question of introducing greater support for clean energy, for renewable energy, trying to develop those sectors, and ensuring that we'll be on a better footing going forward.
NDP
Megan Leslie NDP Halifax, NS
Thanks. That transition to the green energy economy is interesting to me, when we think about the oil sands, because there are skills being developed in the oil sands, drilling skills, for example, that are totally transferable to the green energy economy. For geothermal energy, for example, it's the same skill that's needed. I think about the potential for using some of those skills, using some of that knowledge, to help us transition.
Is that a bit of what could happen as well?
Economist, Alberta and the North, Pembina Institute
Yes, for sure. I think as much as possible we would want to leverage the skills and the technology we've been developing within the oil sands and fossil fuels sector and use them as part of the transition.