Natural Resources Committee on April 8th, 2014

[Bob Zimmer, Conservative, Prince George—Peace River, BC]

Thanks, Bill. We could probably spend an hour talking about the benefits, but thanks for that. I know it's a good story, what Fort Nelson has done with the water, making it something that's environmentally friendly but also user-friendly as well.

Dave, I see Art snuck away, but it's good to have you here in Ottawa. It's too bad you couldn't make the trip either but, nevertheless, thanks for appearing this morning.

I know quite a bit about Energy Services BC from you and Art. Your story is a good one. I remember you were working at the plant and now you have your own company that has done fairly well.

Part of the Energy Services BC story is wanting to have benefits kept in B.C. and making sure that they're realized in B.C. It actually says in your paper that your mandate is to increase the benefits of the oil and gas industry for all British Columbians.

Why?

[Dave Turchanski]

Well, the Alberta border is not very far away from us, of course, and it's in direct competition with us. We have a number of resources in the province of British Columbia, and with the exporters' and producers' head offices being in Alberta, a lot of the ground inspectors who do work here in the north don't realize the resources here that are available in the province of British Columbia. There are resources that we don't have available that have to come in from the outside, which I totally understand, and I don't have a problem with that. But, at the same time, having said that, we have a number of resources here, whether it's in Dawson Creek, Fort St. John, or Fort Nelson, where these could be utilized. A lot of times today we're seeing these resources are not being used with other companies coming into the area.

So it has always been an issue or concern with us as far as mandating ourselves. We're looking out for the best interests of all the people in the service sector here in the province of British Columbia. Going forward, especially where we are today, being situated in probably one of the best places in North America as far as LNG is concerned, we will watch out and do the best we can do for the people here in the province of British Columbia.

[Bob Zimmer, Conservative, Prince George—Peace River, BC]

Yes, and I think to make folks understand the cross-Canadian perspective that's here, we see a lot of companies coming through our neck of the woods that use services, that use hospitals, that use a whole bunch of other things, but yet they're not taxed in B.C. and therefore we can't capture any of that money once it goes back across the border. I think it was important to state what you had said too, that we are not opposed to competition or especially to services that aren't offered in B.C. at all, but I think what you're saying is we just want to make sure that there is a benefit for B.C. and that it is captured on our side.

Just from your own company—

[The Chair, Conservative, Leon Benoit]

Your time is up, Mr. Zimmer. Thank you very much for your questioning.

Ms. Duncan, go ahead, you have up to seven minutes.

[Linda Duncan, NDP, Edmonton Strathcona, AB]

Thank you very much.

Thank you very much, gentlemen. We look forward to the chief appearing and to his testimony.

Mr. Turner, it's nice to have you at least on the screen. It would be nice to meet you. I had the privilege of being the first assistant deputy of natural resources in Yukon in the early 1990s and so I'm well aware of the deep concern for the protection of the environment. While there is of course interest in developing the resources of the Yukon, there is a strong tourism and outfitter sector, and they, of course, want to make sure that the environment.... I understand there used to be direct flights from Germany to Yukon because they have such strong interest in the beauty of the Yukon. I'm also deeply aware of the fact that when decisions are made by the Government of Yukon, first nations rights and interests are first and foremost because of all the first nations final agreements.

You mentioned there is a vocal minority expressing concern about the fracking. That seems to be at odds with what I'm told, that, in fact, a resolution was passed by the inter-tribal watershed that includes a large number of first nations, and that they are, in particular, opposed to fracking in Eagle Plains. I wonder if you could elaborate on what you'd said, that there was a vocal minority.

[Peter Turner]

I'll try. As I mentioned, we are by default the people discussing oil and gas. It's not my field of expertise.

It's my understanding that the Tr'ondëk Hwëch'in, who are the people whose traditional territory is within the area around Eagle Plains, are challenged in that they are trying to weigh the potential economic benefits of employment opportunities, were there to be a successful oil and gas exploration arena functioning out there, with their concerns for the environment. I think that's a balance that's actually being weighed by all Yukoners.

I think the jury is certainly out in terms of the potential risks versus benefits of hydraulic fracturing. That's, in fact, why the Yukon government currently has an all-party committee looking at that issue, and I believe they're due to come up with a recommendation to the Yukon government within the coming months.

[Linda Duncan, NDP, Edmonton Strathcona, AB]

Precisely. It's my understanding that there was such considerable concern that, to their credit, the Yukon government actually formed a select committee on risks associated with fracking. To their credit, they are pursuing that.

Clearly, there is some considerable concern. I know, of course, first nations are looking for development opportunities, but they also want to make sure that one first nations benefit doesn't harm the interests of the other. I wish them well with that review. We can probably learn a lot from that here in Ottawa.

I'm wondering if, in the course of that review, the Yukon legislators have been able to access the work being done by the scientific review that the federal government has commissioned.

[The Chair, Conservative, Leon Benoit]

Just a minute, Mr. Turner.

Ms. Duncan, you do know that we're studying the cross-country benefits of the oil and gas sector here. If you want to ask questions on environmental issues, at least connect them somehow to the economic benefits or the cross-country benefits, just so we're on topic.

[Linda Duncan, NDP, Edmonton Strathcona, AB]

I think I'm pretty clearly on topic. Our witness has been very clear in raising that as one concern. The committee is trying to review potential impacts of fracking in the course of reviewing potential benefits from oil and gas exploration. As I understand it, conventional resources are gone, so they're having to seek exploration of unconventional resources—

[The Chair, Conservative, Leon Benoit]

All I'm asking is that you make the connection so that we're on topic.

[Linda Duncan, NDP, Edmonton Strathcona, AB]

I just made the connection.

[The Chair, Conservative, Leon Benoit]

Go ahead, but please stay on topic.

Yes, Ms. Crockatt.

[Joan Crockatt, Conservative, Calgary Centre, AB]

Thank you very much. I just think it's worth reconnecting here to make sure we are all in sync, because I don't want the witnesses to have an incorrect idea about the study. It is about the benefits that you're being asked to testify.

Thank you.

[The Chair, Conservative, Leon Benoit]

Yes, and the reason the study is about the benefits is because the environmental impacts and that kind of thing are talked about all the time. That's why this study is actually before this committee right now.

Go ahead, please, Ms. Duncan, with your questioning. You still have roughly two and a half minutes left.

[Linda Duncan, NDP, Edmonton Strathcona, AB]

I will continue directing questions.

Mr. Turner, thank you very much. I'm sorry for the interruption. I appreciated that you raised this issue, and that is why I'm looking forward to giving you the opportunity to elaborate on it. You clearly said that there is interest in developing the economy of the Yukon, but that there are concerns, and the legislature of the Yukon is trying to examine those. That's part of pursuing unconventional oil and gas. I'm well aware of those issues, being an Albertan.

My understanding is that among the issues raised is the concern about potential impacts on groundwater. The federal government has in the past invested a considerable amount of money examining water issues, including groundwater.

Are you aware of investment by the federal government, and would that be helpful to pursuing the unconventional resources? Would intensification of that investment by the federal government help to move that debate along?

[The Chair, Conservative, Leon Benoit]

Ms. Duncan, you have about a minute and a half left, and we are stopping the clock, but again, if you want to ask a question on that environmental issue, make sure you connect it to what the study is about, which is the benefits across this country of the oil and gas sector, the benefits to the Canadian economy of the oil and gas sector.

Just find a way to connect your questions to that. We have to stay on topic, or we end up with meetings that are of very little benefit.

On a point of order, Ms. Charlton.

[Chris Charlton, NDP, Hamilton Mountain, ON]

On a point of order, thank you, Chair. I appreciate what you're saying, and we're certainly participating in these hearings in good faith, but it seems to me that if we want to talk about the benefits of the oil and gas sector, we have an obligation to talk about how we develop those resources in a sustainable way. That's how we maximize the benefit. So Ms. Duncan's questions about sustainable development in the north are absolutely germane to maximizing benefits.

I would hope that you would give her some leeway, especially since it piggybacks on testimony we have already heard from one of our witnesses.

[The Chair, Conservative, Leon Benoit]

Ms. Charlton, you made a connection there. If Ms. Duncan would make that same connection, it would make it a lot easier for me, as chair, to allow her to go ahead. Great, you've made the connection.

Ms. Duncan, please make the connection when you're asking your questions so that we are—

[Linda Duncan, NDP, Edmonton Strathcona, AB]

I'd like to speak to the point of order, Mr. Chair.

[The Chair, Conservative, Leon Benoit]

To the point of order, Ms. Duncan.

[Linda Duncan, NDP, Edmonton Strathcona, AB]

I am simply following up on the testimony by Mr. Turner, which is very fair testimony, and I congratulate him on that. He's given us a very fair overview of the kinds of issues and constraints they're facing in the Yukon, which is not unusual to any place else in Canada.

[The Chair, Conservative, Leon Benoit]

Okay, you're into debate now.

[Linda Duncan, NDP, Edmonton Strathcona, AB]

I'm not into debate; I'm speaking to the point of order. The point of order is that the question is “benefit who?” Mr. Turner has testified that a number of first nations and others have raised concerns about the implications for them of pursuing unconventional oil and gas. I'm simply giving him the opportunity to find out if he thinks there is anything federally that could help that dialogue in assessing and resolving the issues of the benefits from pursuing unconventional oil and gas.

[The Chair, Conservative, Leon Benoit]

If the connection is made to the topic of our study, that can be accommodated. If there's no connection made, I'll have to cut you off, and we will go on to a question that does pertain to the study.

If a witness in either part or all of their testimony isn't on topic, it doesn't give the questioners a right to stray from the topic of our study—and again, I've explained what the topic is.

Anyway, let's not get into a long discussion on this. We have stopped the clock. Let's go ahead with the witness, and just make that connection.

[Linda Duncan, NDP, Edmonton Strathcona, AB]

I would like to give Mr. Turner an opportunity to answer my question.

Mr. Turner?