Natural Resources Committee on Nov. 18th, 2013

[Terence Hubbard]

I'm unaware at this point in time of any fracking proposals that would have triggered a review on the MPMO initiative.

[Geoff Regan, Liberal, Halifax West, NS]

Do you mean anywhere across the country?

[Terence Hubbard]

That's right.

[Geoff Regan, Liberal, Halifax West, NS]

None of them are large enough, in terms of value. Is it based on value?

[Terence Hubbard]

No, it's based simply on the level of federal review required by these projects. Most of the fracking development activities occur under provincial jurisdiction, so in terms of the federal levers to oversee these projects we're kind of limited.

[Geoff Regan, Liberal, Halifax West, NS]

Are you able to tell me what the major issues are that have been raised in those conversations with the Mi'kmaq First Nation in Nova Scotia, and what projects they're most concerned about?

[Terence Hubbard]

I'm not sure if we have a list, Jim, in terms of which projects we're moving forward on within Nova Scotia at this point in time, but in terms of the conversations, I'm in the finalizing of that agreement. My understanding was that it was finalized quite quickly, that the first nations community was quite interested in working with the federal government to better define the scope and clarify expectations in carrying out consultations. By developing an agreement with the community, both sides have much clearer expectations going into any individual consultations on individual projects on how those consultations will proceed.

[Geoff Regan, Liberal, Halifax West, NS]

Are you able to tell me who specifically you're meeting with in relation to the first nations in Nova Scotia, what organization?

[Terence Hubbard]

I would have to follow up with my colleagues at Aboriginal Affairs, who are the ones liaising directly on the agreements.

[Geoff Regan, Liberal, Halifax West, NS]

Thank you.

[The Chair, Conservative, Leon Benoit]

Thank you, Mr. Regan.

Ms. Crockatt, you have up to five minutes.

[Joan Crockatt, Conservative, Calgary Centre, AB]

Thank you very much.

I think we've all appreciated your candidness and the fact that we're learning a lot about how the MPMO works.

I think Canadians want to be sure that government oversight is thorough on these projects, that we haven't removed our competitiveness as a country in developing our resource projects, and that our standards are among the best in the world.

You have mentioned the EU and our relationship in terms of our standards with the EU. I wondered if you could expand further on those three areas and let us know how we're doing in terms of the thoroughness of reviews, our competitiveness with other countries, and where our standards sit vis-à-vis the rest of the world.

[Terence Hubbard]

Again, it's very difficult to draw precise comparisons across different regimes and different jurisdictions, given that they all operate under a different context, different legislation, different regimes, and they have their own processes and approaches in place. We're quite confident that the process we have in Canada is substantive in terms of its rigour and thoroughness and the ability to provide that certainty and clarity for industry proponents. We've been the office, and the initiative has been identified as a best practice by industry stakeholders and by different levels of government.

We've had a number of conversations with counterparts in the U.S., a number of conversations with delegations from Australia, and a number of conversations with business leaders across North America. They have pointed to the reforms we've made as a best model of best practices that their jurisdictions should look at in terms of replicating, to try to ensure that they continue to remain competitive with Canada as we go forward.

I'm not saying that our job is done. We can always get better. We continue to hear about areas where significant improvements can be made, so we continue to focus on our opportunities and where we can get better. We need to continue to move, because the bar continues to move. That's one thing we're certain of: the opportunity is to always get better.

[Joan Crockatt, Conservative, Calgary Centre, AB]

Maybe I could leave it with you. If there is anything in terms of measurability that's been said specifically, we'd love to know about that.

I'd like to ask you a bit about government creep. There is a tendency for departments to sort of self-sustain and to grow their responsibilities, especially when some responsibilities might have been taken away from them. I'm from Alberta and I hear a lot about Alberta projects. I hear also from some projects in Northwest Territories.

This is anecdotal so I'm asking you. We've heard about agencies like the National Energy Board that are now upping some of the regulations that companies have to fulfill which they were not enforcing previously and that go beyond what is strictly included in the 24 months. Companies are now quite concerned that the 24-month timeline might be met for just the strictest of criteria, but there are other opportunities to extend the timeframes.

One of the specific issues I wanted to leave you with and which you may be able to comment on is that the financial criteria now have been set much higher for companies participating in projects. It doesn't appear that anything has changed in the regulations, and the aboriginal companies in particular are very concerned they may be cut out of the opportunity to succeed in some of their applications.

[Terence Hubbard]

There are a number of things to comment on there.

In terms of creep and departments moving forward on these processes and reviews, I think number one is that the more we know, the more questions it leads to. As we develop a more rigorous understanding of the issues and have that more detailed baseline information going forward, these reviews are getting better and better over time. Also, expectations from Canadians are that we continue to look at these issues as rigorously as we can. We have public hearing processes that provide opportunities for all stakeholders to provide their comments, assess and test this information, and ensure that the rigour is in these processes as they go.

In terms of the kind of focus going forward, the National Energy Board has made a number of changes to their process over the years. They continue to focus on ensuring that, first and foremost, activities can be done safely. It is a key focus for that organization as well as all of our regulatory departments and agencies to ensure, first and foremost, that things can be done safely.

There was a whole series of measures introduced under the plan for RRD to ensure and strengthen pipeline safety going forward. Colleagues at Transport Canada focused as well on enhancing the marine safety regime as we move forward. There are a number of commitments moving forward on that angle.

There is definitely a trend towards ensuring that these processes not only are timely but are more rigorous, and that they meet a kind of world-class standard for safety.

[The Chair, Conservative, Leon Benoit]

Thank you, Ms. Crockatt.

[Joan Crockatt, Conservative, Calgary Centre, AB]

Thank you.

[The Chair, Conservative, Leon Benoit]

I have a few questions for you. I'm going to follow up on some questioning.

I think it was Mr. Bevington who indicated there were 18 individuals from companies in the natural resource sector who met with you. He made a comment that only companies met with you, or he asked you a question, I guess, as to whether it was only companies that met with you.

I want to follow up on that and ask whether or not you in fact meet with individuals from various government departments as well.

[Terence Hubbard]

Typically, in any individual project we'll have meetings with project proponents early before any project application is submitted. That would entail meetings in bringing together the relevant federal regulatory departments and agencies to participate in those discussions. MPMO isn't the subject-matter expert on each of these individual pieces, and part of the service we provide is trying to ensure that those proponents really understand the obligations before they get into the process.

[The Chair, Conservative, Leon Benoit]

Right. Of course the names of these individuals wouldn't show up because they're not considered to be lobbyists. Is that correct?

[Terence Hubbard]

That is correct.

[The Chair, Conservative, Leon Benoit]

Have you met with individuals from departments in provincial governments?

[Terence Hubbard]

We have regular ongoing meetings with our provincial government colleagues, both on individual projects as well as through broader mechanisms and fora that are more formalized.

[The Chair, Conservative, Leon Benoit]

Their names don't show up on any lists because they're not considered to be lobbyists. Is that correct?

[Terence Hubbard]

That's correct.