Natural Resources Committee on Nov. 18th, 2013

[The Chair, Conservative, Leon Benoit]

Really, the list that Mr. Bevington pointed to doesn't tell the whole story at all in terms of the types of people whom your office meets with and the types of discussions you have on an ongoing basis.

[Terence Hubbard]

To elaborate more broadly, the list captures a small percentage of the conversations that would be ongoing through the initiative. It wouldn't capture all of the ongoing conversations that we have at the official level with various stakeholder communities.

There have been a number of different mechanisms that the MPMO has used to solicit input from various stakeholder communities. We've had a number of different workshops with the environmental communities, aboriginal communities, and some of those reports are on the MPMO's website, but they wouldn't show up on the lobbyist list, no.

[The Chair, Conservative, Leon Benoit]

Yes, exactly, as well as meetings that you've had with members of other departments.... Individuals from other departments have also had meetings, I would assume, with members of the aboriginal community and other communities that might have a vested interest in this process. Is that correct?

[Terence Hubbard]

That is correct, and discussions continue. MPMO is just one source of input into the process. Our colleagues at other departments and organizations continue to meet with our stakeholder communities as well in bringing that input into discussions among the broader interdepartmental community.

[The Chair, Conservative, Leon Benoit]

Thank you very much. I just wanted to make that clear.

The other thing is, you said your hope is that your office can do yourselves out of a job down the road. I think what you are indicating is that you hope the various government departments can work together among themselves well enough that you will no longer be needed, and that various federal government departments will work well enough with provincial government departments that they will no longer be needed.

Knowing the nature of departments and the competitiveness among departments, I wonder whether that realistically is something that can happen. That competitiveness will remain. It's just natural; there's nothing wrong with it, but I think as much as anything it's the reason your office is needed. Is that a fair comment?

[Terence Hubbard]

That is a fair comment. These are significant, substantive projects and they generate all sorts of cross-cutting horizontal issues that don't fit neatly within departmental mandates. That's part of the value the MPMO brings to these issues in having mechanisms to address those horizontal cross-cutting issues.

In terms of the broader process and approach, we've hard-wired, if you will, through some of the legislative changes some of the best practices that we implemented through policy through the MPMO, through some of the legislative changes. Some of those changes are now permanently in the legislative framework, but there are still additional activities that we carry out through the office where there's a value for a central body to coordinate these activities going forward, yes.

[The Chair, Conservative, Leon Benoit]

Thank you very much. My time is up.

[Claude Gravelle, NDP, Nickel Belt, ON]

Mr. Chair, a point of information, please.

[The Chair, Conservative, Leon Benoit]

Mr. Gravelle, go ahead, please.

[Claude Gravelle, NDP, Nickel Belt, ON]

I'm a little concerned about one of the answers that he gave that some of the lobbyists are not on the list. Isn't it against the law to be lobbied by somebody and they're not on the list? Why are all the people you mentioned not on the list? Isn't that against the law?

[The Chair, Conservative, Leon Benoit]

I don't see that really as a point of information.

[Claude Gravelle, NDP, Nickel Belt, ON]

If it's against the law....

[The Chair, Conservative, Leon Benoit]

You're certainly free to ask that question when you have a round. You can take a round of questioning later.

Ms. Duncan, go ahead, please, for up to five minutes.

[Linda Duncan, NDP, Edmonton Strathcona, AB]

Thank you very much, Mr. Chair.

I think it may have been Ms. Block who first raised it, but someone on the other side raised the issue of benchmarks, and I think it was followed up, maybe by Ms. Crockatt.

The government has talked about responsible development. I notice that your mandate is about ensuring responsible development. Over the time of the current government they have talked about balanced development. My understanding is that they have set up two indicators. One was the efficiency of the process, and the other was effectiveness. I think it was probably in the budget documents or the throne speech.

Efficiency was obviously about trying to speed it up, making it more timely and effective from that standpoint. Effectiveness was defined as meeting environmental responsibilities and responsibilities to first nations. I'm a little troubled in the discussion here that this seems to have fallen off the table. You said that you've come up with clear indicators for measuring efficiency but you are still working on the measurements for effectiveness.

It has just been reported this week that Canada is now at the bottom of the barrel among OECD countries for environmental protection. I'm wondering whether the way the international community is judging us might be an indicator to take a look at. Whom do you plan to actually consult with? Could you give us a list of the people you have been consulting and will consult on developing your indicator for effectiveness of the MPMO?

[Terence Hubbard]

You're correct about the MPMO looking to take a balanced approach to issues. It's very important in terms of our agenda going forward that we can demonstrate to stakeholders that it's not just about efficiency, but that we are making a concerted effort to improve the effectiveness of the process. That's why under the plan for responsible resource development there were dedicated segments of the plan to enhance environmental protection and strengthen our approach to aboriginal consultations.

We have a series of measures under each of those pillars—

[Linda Duncan, NDP, Edmonton Strathcona, AB]

My question was whom you have consulted and whom you will be consulting and whether you could provide us with that list.

[Terence Hubbard]

Most of the work we're doing in terms of developing our performance metrics is within our government departments and agencies. We're really working with our colleagues at Environment Canada and other departments to identify, for example, the best approach and best path forward to identify that we're delivering better environmental outcomes. They would be relying upon and leaning upon the input their stakeholders receive from various communities to inform their approach to this as well.

[Linda Duncan, NDP, Edmonton Strathcona, AB]

Thank you very much. I have a second question for you.

You've spoken a fair bit about this one window. I've been an environmental lawyer for 40 years and I've been at every discussion between the federal, provincial and territorial governments and industry on the one window approach.

I wonder whether you're aware of the harmonization accord that was entered into through the CCME, the Canadian Council of Ministers of the Environment, I believe in the 1980s, and of all of the work on the ground since. I was once the chief of enforcement for Environment Canada. It's my understanding that on the ground the federal and provincial authorities in DFO, Environment, and so forth actually work cooperatively and very well together. I'm a little puzzled about where all of this lack of cooperation and coordination is.

The joint panel reviews were set up 20 or 30 years ago. The federal government used to participate a great deal. It is now reduced to the point that the federal government might appoint somebody to the panel, but by and large they rely on the provincial review.

I'm puzzled about what the big task is that the MPMO has to take on.

[Terence Hubbard]

You are correct about the long history of work between the federal and provincial governments to address and work collaboratively and jointly on these issues. Those conversations have continued right up to the last energy and mines ministers meeting last fall, in terms of the commitment to continue to explore and enhance those relationships going forward.

The processes both federally and provincially continue to evolve and change over the years. Those changes and enhancements require continuous efforts and focuses to ensure that we're sharing and exchanging information and continuing to move in the general same direction. It's been quite clear from statements coming out of provincial governments that they've been very adamant about moving towards this one project, one review approach, right up to making and moving forward with the changes that were introduced—

[Linda Duncan, NDP, Edmonton Strathcona, AB]

Could I just ask you—

[The Chair, Conservative, Leon Benoit]

Thank you, Ms. Duncan. You're out of time.

We go now to Mr. Allen, followed by Mr. Gravelle, and then Mr. Zimmer, if there's time.

[Mike Allen, Conservative, Tobique—Mactaquac, NB]

Thank you, Chair.

There are two or three questions I'd like to follow up on.

Mr. Clarke, I think you indicated that you had officers in the regional areas and that you also have officers with expertise in certain areas. You are also proud of the fact that you built this team from the start, that it wasn't inherited.

Were these folks hired from outside, or were they transfers from other areas and other departments into this area?

[Jim Clarke]

Thank you for the question.

Just to clarify, if I left you with the impression that I have people in the region, I'm sorry for that; I don't. They are all Ottawa based.

Basically, these people were hired from various departments and agencies within the federal government, based on their skill sets and their expertise at the time.

[Mike Allen, Conservative, Tobique—Mactaquac, NB]

Okay.

I want to follow up on the overlap issue. I'm a little concerned with it. I think Mr. Trost pointed out the idea of the provinces coming onside. We'd really like to have them come onside. It would be great if we had a standard platform across Canada to do this work and make sure that we have no overlaps and make sure, maybe even more importantly, that we don't have any gaps in the process.

If you have a province such as New Brunswick or Nova Scotia or others on a bit of a different flow and maybe on different timelines, because they're not necessarily overlapping, have you seen such overlap? Do you have any concern, for example, if as part of this process you may have an approval and may have subsequent DFO permits issued, the province would slow the process down or overturn something that you had issued a permit on? Have you seen any of that, and do you see opportunities for improvement there?

[Jim Clarke]

I can't point to a specific example in New Brunswick right now in which that has occurred. I know that there's every effort for coordination. If there isn't a substituted or equivalency agreement in place and there is a provincial requirement and a federal requirement, the overall objective, and this is often driven by the Environmental Assessment Agency, is to coordinate to the maximum extent possible to make sure that one set of information is meeting the requirements of both jurisdictions and that they go along a parallel track and they are integrated when they can be, so that there is a coordinated assessment.

As to your concern about the uptake of substitution, there is one thing we're trying to do. We have a regulatory reform working group under the Energy and Mines Ministers' Conference which the MPMO was involved in. We work on a number of deliverables every year. One this year will be to share experiences on substitution. We'll ask British Columbia to share their experience on substitution, how it's going, how they got there, so that other provinces such as New Brunswick can learn from it, and so there might be more appetite to facilitate other provinces taking up a substituted approach.