Evidence of meeting #50 for Natural Resources in the 41st Parliament, 2nd session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was program.
A recording is available from Parliament.
Conservative
Pat Perkins Conservative Whitby—Oshawa, ON
Thank you very much.
I'm going to go to some other questions that I have for Mr. Hanlon.
You were saying that you want to see a program for start-ups, Mr. Hanlon, with respect to some sort of government program that would be a subsidy to assist the start-ups. Could you explain that a little bit?
Project Manager, Wawasum Group LP
Right now there are a number of different programs, whether they are federal or provincial. In regard to fiscal years, how much money is there and how long the program is going to run, it's very difficult to start putting in applications, make progress, keep the progress, and maintain it.
What we're saying is that if a federal or provincial government is going to invest in a business to get it started, and if it takes two years to do your class 20 or your class 10, do the business plan, get everything developed, and resolve any kind of environmental issues, then have that consistent funding there for that company to get off and running. Once you do all the preparation and you're ready for construction, everything's done.
I used to be with the Red Rock Indian Band. I was elected chief and onto council. Again, it wasn't with regard to forestry, but to give you an example, we saw where a program was funded but because it took so long to get the application or to get it approved or anything else, we had to lay people off. Then what happens is you have to turn around and sometimes hire new people because the other people have other jobs and you're starting all over again.
What we're trying to say is let's find a more effective, more efficient, cost-effective way to get these businesses up and running and to build on that for the communities.
Conservative
Pat Perkins Conservative Whitby—Oshawa, ON
Thank you very much.
Your Worship Mr. Brown, with respect to the new investments and jobs on the rise, I like that story. That was a very good point that you brought forward. The $100 million that you were speaking of with respect to—what is it? Is it for Resolute Forest Products to put in a new sawmill?
Mayor, Town of Atikokan
Yes, there are two communities in northwestern Ontario, Atikokan and Ignace. Between the two communities, they will be investing about $100 million. In Atikokan it's a brand new sawmill, and in Ignace it's upgrading one that was there and adding on a few more jobs. It's great for the economy of northwestern Ontario.
Conservative
Pat Perkins Conservative Whitby—Oshawa, ON
It's creating all the new jobs, and everybody's getting involved—
Conservative
Conservative
Pat Perkins Conservative Whitby—Oshawa, ON
You specifically talked about the challenges. I'm the new kid on the block, so I get to ask the questions and say that I'm not aware of this and I'd like to be educated on it. Can you tell me what it is they are doing with respect to managing the caribou?
Mayor, Town of Atikokan
There are studies that come out that we don't think have all the evidence. There are studies suggesting that because the forestry industry is there, it's taking away land from the caribou. On the other hand, we have other studies coming out that say because the forestry industry is there, it's clearing the land and the caribou are doing better. That's one point.
Conservative
Pat Perkins Conservative Whitby—Oshawa, ON
If you had an opportunity.... I guess my question should be more if you don't agree with....
Conservative
The Chair Conservative Leon Benoit
Ms. Perkins, I'm sorry, but you're out of time. If you find another example, maybe somebody will get to that later.
Go ahead with the answer.
Mayor, Town of Atikokan
I have the news clipping here. I won't read it all, but in the Thunder Bay paper, The Chronicle-Journal, on March 7, there was an article that said don't blame Resolute. Resolute is the company in northwestern Ontario that's building a mill in our community. They have a thriving mill in Thunder Bay. They are building a wood pelletizing plant in Thunder Bay, and they operate the mill in Ignace. I'll read you a couple of comments from the article:
Numbers and trends for most populations of woodland caribou across the boreal forest are poorly known. Population surveys for woodland caribou are difficult to accurately measure due to low densities, large land area and multiple jurisdictions. So what is the real reason for the decline of the woodland caribou, if in fact there is a decline?
There are people who are questioning the numbers. They think that the woodland caribou are doing quite well.
Conservative
The Chair Conservative Leon Benoit
Okay, we're going to have to leave it at that. Thank you very much.
We will go now to Mr. Rafferty. You'll get about eight minutes.
NDP
John Rafferty NDP Thunder Bay—Rainy River, ON
All right. Thank you very much, Mr. Chair.
I don't have a question about the woodland caribou, but if you can squeeze in some more of that answer somewhere, that's okay.
My first question is for Mr. Brown.
It might surprise some people, but occasionally, once in a while, this government actually gets something right. I'm going to tell you when. When the economic crisis hit in 2008-09, the government introduced a community adjustment fund, and it was designed specifically for communities just like Atikokan. If you have followed Atikokan's history for the last 50 years, it's a resource community that has gone up and down, up and down. Unfortunately, the community adjustment fund was only for two years. I want to ask you about that, because you were a beneficiary of some moneys from the community adjustment fund.
Do you think a permanent community adjustment fund, perhaps targeted at or reserved for small or rural communities, focused on...I'm thinking particularly of infrastructure, because I know Atikokan, and I know that the infrastructure needs are great. I would be surprised if it wasn't exactly the same for communities the size of yours, Mr. Brown, right across the country. I wonder if you could give the committee your thoughts on that community adjustment fund, because I think we can assume that sometime in the future, forestry, like almost all the resource industries, is going to have that kind of wave for communities. What are your thoughts on that?
Mayor, Town of Atikokan
Yes, as Mr. Rafferty said, in 2008 Atikokan benefited from the community adjustment fund. We were able to access funding for our main street. We built a new town hall and we improved our airport. That was great news, but now we are at a stage where it's difficult for our small town to even pay its share. That's becoming an issue. A lot of times we have to pay 50%. For example, last year, with the province putting up some funding, we had to pay half of it. It was for one kilometre of road, doing the resurfacing, the sewer pipes, and the water lines. It amounted to $4 million, and we had to pay $2 million. You see, for a small town with a population of 3,000, it's very difficult.
Mr. Rafferty is right. The infrastructure deficit is huge, and I think it's huge in pretty well all small towns across Canada, and the big places, too. That's a challenge we have. I don't know what the fast answer is, but I know in our community we can't borrow much more money to pay our share or do anything. We're kind of caught.
NDP
John Rafferty NDP Thunder Bay—Rainy River, ON
The other thing with infrastructure is you have to have the infrastructure there for companies to invest in those communities. It's sometimes a catch-22. If you don't have the quality of life...and I happen to know Atikokan. I know what your swimming pool is like. I know what your skating rink is like. You don't have to push in your skating rink; you can just go downhill and uphill, and that's an indoor rink.
It is very important. Thank you for that answer.
Mr. Hanlon, we heard earlier in these hearings from a first nations witness from British Columbia who spoke about the success of their organization in terms of having a pilot project for youth. I think everybody on the committee remembers that discussion. The project was funded by the province, in this case, and a private funder.
The provincial government provides the funds for education while the private partner provides the summer jobs and mentoring for the students. The program covered everything from forestry technician, to skilled trades for the forestry sector, to forestry manager, to forestry business and business practices. Do you think this sort of program would be welcomed by your community and all of northern Ontario? Could you envision the federal government playing an active role in such an initiative in Ontario?
Project Manager, Wawasum Group LP
I think it goes hand in hand in regard to what we are asking for if we're going to create these businesses, jobs, and opportunities. It's beneficial for us to educate our youth, to keep them in the communities, and to have them doing meaningful trades jobs running the forest and looking after the forest. It really goes hand in hand to ensure....
We hear so many horror stories in regard to first nations reserves that have no jobs, and the poverty and everything else. We're all surrounded by forests. We're all delivering forest products. If we all got together, we could make every first nations community a success story. We could be out there honking our horns and saying, “Hey, everybody's working. Our first nations community members are benefiting, the surrounding communities are benefiting because of the economic opportunities, but most of all our youth are benefiting.”
You heard about the suicides and everything else that goes on in first nations. That would give them something that would occupy them and keep them employed and keep them working. It would get them to have the structure in regard to having money, or buying a vehicle, as a lot of other communities do. The youth have that opportunity. First nations communities don't. A federal program to assist and to coincide with employment, jobs, and training would go hand in hand.
NDP
NDP
John Rafferty NDP Thunder Bay—Rainy River, ON
Mr. Lessard, this is regarding the softwood lumber agreement. So far, we've heard in the committee differing views about its success and its failures, and what its future should be.
We heard what you said about the softwood lumber agreement moving forward. If negotiations do begin, what would you like to see in the new agreement, particularly for Quebec, but generally in Canada? Do you have some thoughts on that?
Director General, Québec Federation of Forestry Cooperatives
When I speak with my colleagues who are more directly involved in this negotiation, they tell me that there is be a strong consensus across Canada. In fact, people want this agreement to be renewed. Certain provisions in this agreement state that its application can be reviewed in areas where the rules will have changed considerably.
We at least hope that the agreement is renewed because a conflict that would occur in a year and a half would be a catastrophe, not only for Canada's forestry industry, but for almost all the communities that depend on it. So it is very important to try to decrease the pressure.
I tried to be clear. We consider that it is unfair, that it does not respect the Free Trade Agreement and that it should not be that way. However, since the lack of an agreement is worse, we believe that a lot should be invested.
Anything will be possible and permitted for one year, but at the end of that period, in October 2016, it could be a disaster for our industry, unless we rely heavily on Sylvain to sell wood somewhere other than the United States.
Conservative
The Chair Conservative Leon Benoit
Thank you, Mr. Rafferty. You're now out of time.
We'll now go to Mr. Regan for up to eight minutes.
Liberal
Geoff Regan Liberal Halifax West, NS
Let me start with you, Mr. Hanlon. You mentioned a little bit about the importance of educating young people in first nations. Would you like to talk about the kinds of training programs that you think would be most effective?
Project Manager, Wawasum Group LP
The most effective? I guess it's trades. Trades are needed all across the country. To train your community members in regard to trades, whether it's welders or mechanics, and keep them home and keep them there would be beneficial. It would assist in our wood production facility and also in the forest industry.
In regard to managing the forest, we need foresters. We should be getting the youth involved. It's not something that you can train for overnight. It's a long process. We need to get our youth involved in that, but they need to see the light at the end of the tunnel and realize that, yes, there are going to be jobs, and that maybe it's worth it for them to get an education for four or five years, become a forester, and go down that path.