Evidence of meeting #127 for Natural Resources in the 42nd Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was norway.
A recording is available from Parliament.
Liberal
Geng Tan Liberal Don Valley North, ON
You mentioned that circumpolar settlement. The Inuit Circumpolar Council in Canada is a non-profit organization, led by directors, comprising elected leaders of four land claim settlement regimes. After 40 years, it has grown into a major international NGO, representing about 160,000 Inuit in Alaska, Canada, Greenland and Russia.
What can this model offer other countries, including Canada, that are seeking a pathway forward to successful engagement of indigenous communities?
Senior Scholar, University of Alaska Anchorage, As an Individual
To be clear and accurate, the Inuit Circumpolar Council is an international non-governmental organization, as you have stated, consisting of approximately 160,000 Inuit throughout our four member countries. I believe that the declarations we've adopted, including the one I've referenced already, the resource development declaration, and the declaration we have adopted on Arctic sovereignty and our particular interest throughout the Arctic region, can be very instructive in terms of our interest in becoming more self-sufficient. When these are combined with the comprehensive land claims agreements and the Alaska Native Claims Settlement Act, not only do we have clear rights and title to lands, territories and resources but we also have responsibilities. Some of those responsibilities have already been highlighted by this committee in terms of ensuring that the quality of life of our individual members as well as our communities can in fact be enhanced and improved.
The Inuit Circumpolar Council is not a rights-holding institution, but the objectives that we have attempted to move forward, including these declarations but also the 2017 Circumpolar Inuit Economic Summit, pointed to the need to look at the opportunities for sustainable and equitable development that is Inuit-driven so that we can achieve self-sufficiency. Some of these may in fact include natural energy resource development; again it really depends on the people concerned.
Liberal
Geng Tan Liberal Don Valley North, ON
I have 30 seconds to ask Professor Poelzer a quick question, because he hasn't answered any questions for me.
It's a domestic question. You talked about the best practices in other countries and you also gave us some recommendations but what about the made-in-Canada? Do we have any best practices? Is there anything we do very well on which we can actually share our best practices with other countries?
Prof. Greg Poelzer
Sure. Sometimes we are first to look at what we don't do well, but I think we do a number of things well.
In terms of land rights, it's hard to find another country in which you have stronger land rights than you do in Canada.
To go back to your earlier question on the evolution of the different land claims agreements and settlements, you start from the Alaska model, which was also kind of instructive for James Bay to a certain degree, and the lessons from there. Then you go all the way to things like Nisga'a in British Columbia, with regard to which, arguably, some people could make a case for a third order of government. There is also the experiment with co-management, particularly in the Northwest Territories. I've seen that in action in the Mackenzie Delta. It can work. I think some of those things are noteworthy.
But I also think about even earlier experiments that we're doing now. Take First Nations Power Authority in Saskatchewan, which was constructed with premier Brad Wall at the time.
Liberal
The Chair Liberal James Maloney
Professor, I'm going to have to ask you to wrap up very quickly if you can.
Conservative
Ted Falk Conservative Provencher, MB
Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
You'll probably get a chance to continue.
Professor Poelzer, I'll speak to you first. I was very impressed with your optimism regarding the opportunities we as a country have to really embark on nation-building projects.
You likened it to the development of the railroads. I appreciate that. I like that kind of enthusiasm and positiveness. I think you're on the right track.
In fact, this committee some time ago studied electrical interties and whether we had the capacity to move electricity around in an efficient manner within our country. I think you were just starting to allude to that a little bit. If you could finish that up in 30 seconds, I'd invite you to do that. Then I'll move on.
Prof. Greg Poelzer
To take the electricity one, here's a slam dunk that we should be looking at as a country. Look at the Northwest Territories and the intertie to Saskatchewan into northern Manitoba. In terms of a nation-building project to move electrons around, that's something we ought to do that would benefit northern communities.
I want to pick up on another one, and that's private-public partnerships and things we can do very quickly. Take your own home province of Manitoba. The North West Company has phenomenal logistics support. They could partner, as they did recently in Inuvik, with first nations, buy renewable energy in bulk, and have the support there. Indigenous communities across their network could buy power from them...or North West Company could buy power from them on capital investment that could be sold cheaper than any indigenous community could buy on its own.
For these kinds of public-private partnerships, we have the infrastructure right now.
Conservative
Ted Falk Conservative Provencher, MB
Right. Good. Thank you.
Some time ago, the Saskatoon StarPhoenix published an article with respect to the uranium development—again, a partnership. When you were interviewed, you said at that time that it would be a mistake to see the duty to consult as either an aboriginal veto on resource development or a “perfunctory set of hoops you need to jump through in order to proceed”. You said, “It's really about setting up a relationship.”
Conservative
Ted Falk Conservative Provencher, MB
Could you elaborate on that a little bit more? We're in a situation now where we have a project we want to embark on, the government has actually committed our tax dollars to it, and 117 first nations communities will be affected. Six are not in agreement, and it's—
Prof. Greg Poelzer
No, I know. Again, with the duty to consult, there's a misconception that it gives an automatic veto. It doesn't. Of course, there are thresholds in proximity communities. Impacts and all those things get taken into account. But I will tell you this: If we're going to do this successfully, there are two things here. First, don't be afraid of indigenous land ownership. I think Trans Mountain has demonstrated that there is strong indigenous interest in equity ownership in energy projects, whether that be in the fossil fuel industry or in renewables.
Then you have to do meaningful.... You can't just show up. You have to do the hard work. That cuts across governments of all stripes, provincial and federal. We have to do this and we have to take seriously that we are all treaty peoples. We have to build those relationships.
At some point, of course, you're not always going to get everyone to agree. One of the interesting things is that somebody will ask, “Why can't indigenous peoples all agree on something?”, and I will tell them that this would be like asking Prime Minister Trudeau, or someone previous, to make sure that every MP in the House agrees with everything.
That's just not realistic. That's not how human beings are. To the point you raised about relationship-building, that's where it is.
Conservative
Ted Falk Conservative Provencher, MB
You touched on that in the very first point of the four you wanted to make when you talked about doing environmental impact assessments. You said we shouldn't lose focus on, or neglect giving attention to, the social and cultural impacts for all involved.
Prof. Greg Poelzer
A hundred per cent, and I'll give you an anecdote. When I started negotiating with SaskPower with my negotiation hat on, I and my colleague at the time—Tom Molloy, who abandoned me when he picked up another day job, as Lieutenant Governor of Saskatchewan—sat down with them, and we originally couldn't get a contract on vegetation management on an expansion of a transmission facility. There are some history or legacy pieces around that, because there was obviously no consultation back in the 1920s when the dam was originally commissioned. Something we had to explain to people—and there's been an evolution at SaskPower, a very positive one—was this: “You might think that was 1920s and 1930s, but I can assure you that when you walk into those communities, it's as if that dam was built yesterday.”
Those kinds of socio-cultural impacts are legacy intergenerational impacts, something that a lot of mainstream society doesn't fundamentally appreciate. That's why I think that dimension is so important.
Conservative
Ted Falk Conservative Provencher, MB
I know that in Manitoba we had to go back to some first nations communities long after the fact and do some land settlement issues and compensation for the flooded properties and lands—
Conservative
Ted Falk Conservative Provencher, MB
—created as a result of our dams.
Do I have a minute or something like that left?
Conservative
Ted Falk Conservative Provencher, MB
You also made just a fleeting comment, which was that when we talk about our environmental impact assessments there's an expectation for compensation.
Prof. Greg Poelzer
Here's one of the things historically around EIA processes. Often when there is any opportunity at consultation, even though traditionally EIA tends to focus on the physical/environmental perspective, on the community perspective they typically see this broadly. This is one of the big challenges we've had historically with EIA processes. That has caused a lot of consternation, because there's a misunderstanding and then there hasn't been a gateway to address those other issues.
Prof. Greg Poelzer
Well, I'm sure the committee is aware.... I don't know if you guys have ever heard of Bill C-69?