Yes.
Evidence of meeting #128 for Natural Resources in the 42nd Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was communities.
A recording is available from Parliament.
Evidence of meeting #128 for Natural Resources in the 42nd Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was communities.
A recording is available from Parliament.
4:55 p.m.
Vice-President, Policy Development, Canadian Electricity Association
I do not have a lot of information as to what they're doing outside the country. However, Manitoba Hydro, as I mentioned in my remarks, has engaged indigenous communities for about two decades. They were one of the first to sign an agreement with first nations, going back to 2006, the Wuskwatim Power Limited Partnership. That took a long time. Although they signed that in 2006, it went through many years of negotiations. It's not easy to do, but it takes the building of mutual trust and capacity.
We need to ensure that indigenous peoples have that capacity to bring companies and project proponents, such as Manitoba Hydro, to the table for discussions about how to move forward, equity partnerships, and so forth.
I'm sure Ian can speak to that more, if you're interested.
4:55 p.m.
Calgary Centre, Lib.
I do have a question for Dr. Newman.
I'm interested in the difference between an indigenous benefit agreement and an impact benefit agreement. Can you go more into detail to allow me to understand the distinction that you find between those two?
4:55 p.m.
Prof. Dwight Newman
Sure. There would be a distinction between an indigenous industry agreement, the broader category, and the category of an impact benefit agreement, which is usually one type of indigenous industry agreement. However, indigenous industry agreements could be a broader category.
Some joint venture agreements might also be impact benefit agreements, but some might not be. Some types of equity arrangements might be an indigenous industry agreement, but they're not necessarily oriented towards impacts and benefits. They're just oriented towards striking a deal.
Indigenous industry agreements are simply a broader category.
4:55 p.m.
Calgary Centre, Lib.
Have you looked at how courts in other countries have shaped the state of indigenous rights and the best practices we should be taking from what has been said out there in the court systems?
5 p.m.
Prof. Dwight Newman
On the issue of consultation, I think the Canadian courts have said more than probably any other court system in the world, in many ways. There are particular decisions from other jurisdictions that may be inspiring in particular ways. There's an ongoing judicial conversation that takes place between jurisdictions, and so the Canadian courts have heard about New Zealand decisions recently and considered them in the context of some of their indigenous rights cases. The New Zealand courts have heard about Canadian cases. I don't think anything jumps out, though, as something Canada needs to start considering specifically out of foreign courts' case law.
There are some very different models elsewhere. I'll just highlight that Canada, in having a constitutional provision on indigenous rights, is also situated differently from some other countries. Australia does many similar things on indigenous rights in some ways, and not in others, but it does those in the context of title under a statute passed by the Commonwealth parliament in Australia rather than out of an accumulation of court decisions, as in Canada. That's the structure under which indigenous industry agreements arise: under provisions that they have shaped and reshaped within a statute rather than within court decisions, as has often occurred in Canada.
5 p.m.
Conservative
Jamie Schmale Conservative Haliburton—Kawartha Lakes—Brock, ON
Thank you, everyone, for attending.
I guess I'll start with my friends here.
I want to talk about the process to ensure that indigenous communities make their way off diesel. I know a lot of progress has been made and that there are many options.
Is there a preferred option that OPG or anyone has to move the community forward to ensure they get off diesel? Is there a preferred option?
5 p.m.
Director, Indigenous Relations, Ontario Power Generation, Canadian Electricity Association
I can respond to that. Thank you for the question.
I don't think there's necessarily a preferred option. Of course, I think we'd be interested in exploring all technology options. We have a good example, actually.
We're working with Gull Bay First Nation at the moment to develop a new renewable microgrid project that will help reduce the community's dependency on diesel fuel. We're just in the midst of completing that project, in collaboration with first nations. The project will offset approximately 100,000 litres of diesel fuel per year, which should offset around 300 tonnes of emissions. It is a project we're working on in collaboration with the first nation. It's certainly of interest to see what comes out of it.
I don't think, though, that there's a preferred technology at this point.
5 p.m.
Conservative
Jamie Schmale Conservative Haliburton—Kawartha Lakes—Brock, ON
Okay.
Right now, I'm guessing, you see storage as one of the main issues that would be a bit of a hurdle to cross. Is that the case? I know that technology is coming on board, but once we get to the point that it is readily available and affordable—that type of thing—this may change. You would maybe look at wind and solar more.
5 p.m.
Director, Indigenous Relations, Ontario Power Generation, Canadian Electricity Association
Yes. The Gull Bay project is a solar microgrid project, and storage is a part of it. Certainly there are factors you would have to consider. I'm by no means a subject-matter expert on storage—
5 p.m.
Director, Indigenous Relations, Ontario Power Generation, Canadian Electricity Association
—but certainly you would have to look at factors around climate, cold weather and things such as those.
5 p.m.
Conservative
Jamie Schmale Conservative Haliburton—Kawartha Lakes—Brock, ON
In some of the remote communities, as we look to move them off diesel—and as I said at the beginning, progress has been made—covering the base load.... Obviously, the wind isn't always blowing and the sun isn't always shining. This is just wind and solar, for example, not hydroelectricity.
What would you use as a backup in that case? I just had and lost an article about investment in wind and solar in some first nations communities in northern Ontario. What is being used as the backup when such production doesn't happen?
5 p.m.
Director, Indigenous Relations, Ontario Power Generation, Canadian Electricity Association
Right now I think diesel is the backup.
5 p.m.
Conservative
5 p.m.
Director, Indigenous Relations, Ontario Power Generation, Canadian Electricity Association
It's still the backup, yes, as far as I know.
5 p.m.
Conservative
Jamie Schmale Conservative Haliburton—Kawartha Lakes—Brock, ON
Okay. But it would be used as an emergency...?
5 p.m.
Director, Indigenous Relations, Ontario Power Generation, Canadian Electricity Association
Right now, our microgrid project is meant to offset diesel. Diesel will still be used, but this will significantly reduce the dependency, by about 25% in that particular project.
5 p.m.
Conservative
Jamie Schmale Conservative Haliburton—Kawartha Lakes—Brock, ON
Okay.
Concerning a consultation process with the communities involved, I noticed in your testimony that you mentioned that jobs and the training are there as well. I think that's a good first step, and congratulations for taking it. I think that's great. Are there any other opportunities available for members of indigenous communities that you are able to work with to ensure that the learning is lifelong?
5:05 p.m.
Director, Indigenous Relations, Ontario Power Generation, Canadian Electricity Association
Absolutely.
I can use the example of the Lower Mattagami project. We had about 250 people employed on that project. There was significant training and capacity-building in developing the Sibi employment and training. In some cases, people received education upgrading, developed lifelong skills—transferable skills. In some cases, folks went on to work with other companies to further develop their careers.
Procurement also has a huge impact. In our work with the communities, the local businesses and our contractors were able to develop capacity by building relationships between some of the local businesses as well as some of the larger vendors. In some cases, those relationships continue, and we were able to build on other work in the regions.
5:05 p.m.
Conservative
Jamie Schmale Conservative Haliburton—Kawartha Lakes—Brock, ON
It's interesting. You raised a good point.
In some of those communities, there are the people available who have the skills and it would be an easy start up.
Are there any communities you've approached that the skilled trades or the knowledge to deal with such a complex system wasn't readily there and you would have to basically start from scratch?
5:05 p.m.
Director, Indigenous Relations, Ontario Power Generation, Canadian Electricity Association
That example with Sibi was something that was built from scratch in collaboration with the community, OPG and a number of other partners. Our unions, our contractors, helped to build that capacity. There was a lack of capacity, as I understand it, at that time.
That's a great example of where in our discussions on the projects, certainly jobs, employment and training were a big priority for the community. So through collaboration, we developed that program initiative.
5:05 p.m.
Conservative
Jamie Schmale Conservative Haliburton—Kawartha Lakes—Brock, ON
Right.
Obviously, that's a great model to chose.
When you come together like that, is the word spreading that this is a great opportunity for first nations communities that may still be on diesel and may be investigating whether or not to move forward?
