Natural Resources Committee on June 20th, 2019

[Amarjeet Sohi, Liberal, Edmonton Mill Woods, AB]

When we creating jobs, we want to make sure that Canadian workers are able to benefit from that job growth. The building trades have been engaging with Minister Morneau's officials to see what role they can play. They have the expertise and the know-how, and they are workers who have been building pipelines for a long time. We want to tap into their expertise, and Minister Morneau is exploring options with them to see what role they can play in the construction of the pipeline.

[Nick Whalen, Liberal, St. John's East, NL]

As a final very short question, there's been some scuttlebutt at the table here about whether or not a constitutional right is implicated in this process. I'm perhaps not as close to this issue as you are, but do you feel that the section 35 rights of indigenous peoples are implicated by the expansion, and was that something that we were trying to make sure we got right with Bill C-69?

[Amarjeet Sohi, Liberal, Edmonton Mill Woods, AB]

In the work we have done on the consultation of late for the Trans Mountain pipeline expansion, in the thoroughness and the meaningful two-way conversation and engagement that we had, and the assurance from Justice Iacobucci that we have corrected the defects and remedied what the Federal Court of Appeal wanted us to by engaging in meaningful two-way dialogue, I am confident that we have fully discharged our duty to consult with indigenous communities.

I know some people, particularly Conservative politicians, wanted us to make consultation with indigenous communities optional in Bill C-69, which could have been devastating for energy sector projects. Then people would have taken us to court and we would have lost every time we went to court, because you cannot fail to fulfill your duty to consult and to meet the constitutional obligation for meaningful consultation with indigenous communities.

[Nick Whalen, Liberal, St. John's East, NL]

I agree.

[The Chair, Liberal, James Maloney]

Thank you, Minister. Thank you, Mr. Whalen.

Mr. Schmale, you have five minutes.

[Jamie Schmale, Conservative, Haliburton—Kawartha Lakes—Brock, ON]

Thank you, Chair.

It seems the Liberals want it both ways here. They want to criticize this process, yet they approved the pipeline a few years ago in 2016.

I cannot understand how you want to have it both ways. You talk about indigenous consultation. Kinder Morgan had 51 indigenous groups that had signed benefit agreements. Because of your government's handling of this file, it went down to 42, and now you're expecting us to pat you on the back because it's at 48. I can't figure this one out.

[Amarjeet Sohi, Liberal, Edmonton Mill Woods, AB]

I think it is very important, and I will encourage the honourable member to look at the Federal Court of Appeal decision. The appeal was very clear that when the decision was made to not undertake the study of tanker traffic and its impact on the marine environment, it was done completely under the Stephen Harper government.

We were in a good process—

[Jamie Schmale, Conservative, Haliburton—Kawartha Lakes—Brock, ON]

We're talking about consultation. You could have used the transport report as your transportation study. You chose not to. We're talking about consultation here.

[Amarjeet Sohi, Liberal, Edmonton Mill Woods, AB]

You cannot do that. You have to discharge your duty to consult, which means that you have to engage in a two-way meaningful dialogue. Relying on a transportation report is not a substitute for discharging your section 35 obligations.

[Jamie Schmale, Conservative, Haliburton—Kawartha Lakes—Brock, ON]

Now that the pipeline is owned by the Canadian taxpayer, the finance minister says that your government will sell it only once it has been built. Are Canadians on the hook for any cost overruns? According to the PBO, the cost to build the twinning is around $14 billion.

[Amarjeet Sohi, Liberal, Edmonton Mill Woods, AB]

As I said earlier, through you, Mr. Chair, this is an investment in Canada. This is an investment in Canadian workers and Canada's energy sector. This is a commercially viable project. We have professionals at the Trans Mountain Corporation who will undertake further analysis and refine cost estimates now that approval has been given. They will refine construction timelines. This is a project that's going to generate close to $70 billion in revenue for Alberta oil producers. This is a project that will generate close to $45 billion of additional revenue for governments. This is a project that will generate half a billion dollars for the federal government, which we will use to transition and accelerate investments in green technologies and green products to make sure that other future generations have clean water, clean air and clean land, and to make sure that we are reducing the impact of climate change.

From every angle you look at it, this is a good investment in Canada and in Canadians.

[Jamie Schmale, Conservative, Haliburton—Kawartha Lakes—Brock, ON]

It didn't have to be an investment in Canadian taxpayer dollars. It could have been private sector dollars that wouldn't cost taxpayers a cent or put them on the hook for these cost overruns that are potentially very real, considering that dozens of permits still need to be given before construction can start.

How much longer will it take to get the permits? How much will it cost?

This week you announced for the first time that Trans Mountain will have to purchase offsets for construction emissions. How much will that cost Canadian taxpayers?

[Amarjeet Sohi, Liberal, Edmonton Mill Woods, AB]

As far as the offsets for the emissions are concerned, that was part of the NEB conditions that were imposed earlier on and part of the commitments the company has made.

As far as permits are concerned, there is a process to get those permits issued. NEB is going to work with the Trans Mountain Corporation to issue those permits.

I think it's very important that we follow due process. I know Conservatives don't respect due process. They don't respect the rule of law and they always encourage us to cut corners, and that's how you get into trouble. We will not cut corners. We want to get the construction going on this project in the right way.

[Jamie Schmale, Conservative, Haliburton—Kawartha Lakes—Brock, ON]

Under the Conservative government, four pipelines were built and three more were in the queue. Now none of those major companies that build pipelines are doing business in Canada. They are now doing business in other countries, but you keep going on with your line of answer.

Going back to federal permits again, you didn't really give me an idea of how many more permits need to be administered and given before construction can be built. Also, will Canadian taxpayers will be on the hook for the overruns, and have you budgeted for that possibility?

[Amarjeet Sohi, Liberal, Edmonton Mill Woods, AB]

Mr. Chair, for large projects such as this, there are always municipal, provincial and federal permits required, and there's a process in place to get those—

[Jamie Schmale, Conservative, Haliburton—Kawartha Lakes—Brock, ON]

Since you've had nine months since the court order was given, how come you did not instruct your department to start work on applying for these permits and getting them ready to go so that you could start construction immediately?

[Shannon Stubbs, Conservative, Lakeland, AB]

After the NEB recommended approval, it was just two months.

[Amarjeet Sohi, Liberal, Edmonton Mill Woods, AB]

Mr. Chair, what the honourable member is saying would have been devastating for this project. The member is suggesting that we should have approved permits prior to having approval—

[Jamie Schmale, Conservative, Haliburton—Kawartha Lakes—Brock, ON]

It's in response to the NEB recommendation.

[The Chair, Liberal, James Maloney]

Mr. Schmale, your time is up. I'm going to let him finish.

[Amarjeet Sohi, Liberal, Edmonton Mill Woods, AB]

Mr. Chair, it's very important to understand that giving approval to permits prior to the approval of the projects would have undermined administrative justice and would have undermined the due process. It is irresponsible for anyone to suggest that we not respect the process for proper approval of this project, because that is very important and it would have been devastating for energy workers.

[Jamie Schmale, Conservative, Haliburton—Kawartha Lakes—Brock, ON]

That's an NEB problem.

[The Chair, Liberal, James Maloney]

Thank you, Minister.

Thank you, Mr. Schmale.

Ms. Damoff is next.

[Pam Damoff, Liberal, Oakville North—Burlington, ON]

Thank you, Chair, and thank you to the members of the committee for letting me join you today.

Minister, I'm proud to be part of a government that takes climate change seriously and knows that pollution can no longer be free. We can't just sit back and do nothing, which is what the Conservatives are doing. We know that a price on pollution is recognized globally as the most effective way to reduce greenhouse gas emissions and change behaviours.

Minister, I've heard from constituents in my riding who are expressing concern over the approval of TMX and the fact that the government is building a pipeline at the same time that we declared a climate change emergency. People like Chris, a young man who's passionate about climate change and feels we need to be doing more to transition from a carbon economy, has spoken to me a number of times. I know that he was very upset about the TMX approval. I have constituents in Oakville North—Burlington who are passionate about climate change and the environment. Groups like Halton Environmental Network, the Halton Climate Collective, Citizens' Climate Lobby, Oakvillegreen and BurlingtonGreen work tirelessly in our communities to combat climate change.

Minister, could you explain to these groups and to my constituents like Chris how we can justify TMX while also seriously tackling the climate change emergency that we face in Canada?

[Amarjeet Sohi, Liberal, Edmonton Mill Woods, AB]

First of all, I'd like to thank the member so much for her leadership on sustainability. We've often discussed how we can provide options for people so that they can make choices that are sustainable.

I want to assure Chris and I want to assure the environmental leaders and people in your constituency that building the Trans Mountain pipeline does not in any way compromise or hinder our ability to meet our Paris commitments. As a matter of fact, it will help us accelerate our investments into a clean economy, into a green economy, and allow us to meet our Paris commitments. The revenue we will generate from this project will be half a billion dollars once the construction is completed. Multiply that over the next 20 or 30 years. On top of the billions of dollars we're already investing into fighting climate change, that will allow us to do more.

At the same time, we also understand that the production that is happening in the oil sector now needs to move. The best way, the safest way and the most cost-effective way to do that is through pipelines, not through railways, as railways cross so many urban centres. As I heard from many of my colleagues, they would prefer oil moving by pipelines, not rail, because rail, even though it's safe, is not as safe as pipelines, so this is a very good investment. It will allow putting a price on pollution, and it's leadership that our government is demonstrating.

Investing in a thousand public transit projects throughout this country, having better fuel standards, investing in new technologies that allow emissions to go down, building RV electrical vehicle charging stations and investing millions of dollars in incentives for people to buy electric vehicles—all of those things are making a real difference and giving people choices so that they can reduce their impact on the environment.

We are committed. I can tell you that I am so excited about what we are doing. With the building of this pipeline and taking action on climate change, we can grow our economy. We can create thousands of jobs for hard-working Canadians and at the same time make a real difference in the protection of the environment.