Natural Resources Committee on June 20th, 2019

[Pam Damoff, Liberal, Oakville North—Burlington, ON]

Thank you, Minister. I have only about a minute left.

When the previous government talked about consultation, it really just meant showing up, telling people what they were doing and then moving ahead anyway. From a number of meaningful conversations I've had with your parliamentary secretary, I know you went into communities, talked to stakeholders and indigenous communities, and took that feedback. How did those consultations result in changes to what we're doing with TMX?

[Amarjeet Sohi, Liberal, Edmonton Mill Woods, AB]

I think one of the fundamental differences is how we engaged with the communities, and also how we responded to their concerns. There are more accommodations offered in this than ever was done in the past. We're actually dealing with the cumulative impacts of development. We are engaging in how we better respond to spills; how we prevent spills from happening; how we protect water, fish, fish habitat, southern resident killer whales; how we protect cultural sites and burial grounds and all of those things that have been identified by indigenous communities.

Another thing that we have done differently is that we have engaged at the political level. You know, pipelines are controversial. The northern gateway was controversial. Energy east was controversial. The Trans Mountain pipeline expansion was controversial and is still controversial, but I compare the effort that we have put in and the effort that I have personally put in through the 45 meetings that I have held with indigenous communities. I compare that effort with the few meetings the Conservative ministers held with indigenous communities. For 10 years under Stephen Harper, ministers made no effort to actually meet with indigenous communities and listen to their concerns and then work with them to resolve those concerns. We have put our time in and we are very proud of the work we have done.

[The Chair, Liberal, James Maloney]

Thank you, Minister. Thank you, Ms. Damoff.

We can go for about 10 more minutes. We're in a five-minute round. What I propose is to go four minutes, four minutes and two minutes. That way Mr. Cannings gets to finish it off. I think that's fair under the circumstances.

Ms. Stubbs, you have four minutes with a hard cap.

[Shannon Stubbs, Conservative, Lakeland, AB]

Thanks, Chair.

Minister, as a person who is part Ojibwa and as a person who represents nine indigenous communities in Lakeland that are all involved in oil and gas and support pipelines, I really hope that this time the indigenous consultation process implemented by your government holds up. I did want to say this: I thought the one that you guys implemented in 2016, before you approved it, would have held up too. I mean that sincerely, and I hope, for the sake of all Canadians and for the execution of the project, that this remains the case. There was of course a missed opportunity in cancelling the northern gateway and losing the opportunity to redo it.

I just want to clarify what we are saying in terms of your government's mismanagement of the timelines around ensuring certainty around the permits, the contracts and the hearings, and why this is a detriment to the project.

What we are talking about is that when the NEB recommendation for approval was made in April—for the second time—your cabinet was supposed to have responded on May 22, and I suggest to you that every Canadian would think it would be utter insanity to think that your cabinet was even considering rejecting the Trans Mountain expansion, given that you spent $4.5 billion on it in tax dollars last year.

What we are talking about is the timeline that elapsed between the NEB's second approval of the Trans Mountain expansion and the announcement your cabinet made on Tuesday. That is when all of the details and all of the specifics should have been firmed up and certain so that the Tuesday announcement was not just literally the same announcement you made in November of 2016, after which literally nothing got done. Construction could have been able to start immediately. You could have been accountable to Canadians and taxpayers by giving the precise start date, end date, completion date, operation and cost.

It's mind-boggling to me that a federally owned project with a federally owned builder, with a federal government decision, failed to secure the federal government authorizations, as well as the provincial and municipal authorizations that surely you would have known were required for construction to start. That is the certainty you must provide Canadians so that they believe you that the Trans Mountain expansion will actually be built.

I think it's very clear that there never has been a concrete plan for construction to start.

[Amarjeet Sohi, Liberal, Edmonton Mill Woods, AB]

I think that—

[Shannon Stubbs, Conservative, Lakeland, AB]

I want to tell you I've heard from drillers in my riding that banks are revoking their loans—

[The Chair, Liberal, James Maloney]

Ms. Stubbs, if he does want to answer the question, I suggest you give him an opportunity.

[Shannon Stubbs, Conservative, Lakeland, AB]

It wasn't a question. I was just clarifying that point.

[Amarjeet Sohi, Liberal, Edmonton Mill Woods, AB]

With due respect, your understanding is completely wrong. With the utmost respect for you, MP Stubbs, what you were suggesting would have actually gotten us into trouble, because when the Federal Court made the decision in August of 2018, they quashed the decision. There was no project.

We gave new approval on Tuesday to this project. Issuing any permits prior to Tuesday's decision would have been in violation of the procedures under NEB. It would have been taken to court, and we would have lost. We would have done more damage with what you were suggesting.

[Shannon Stubbs, Conservative, Lakeland, AB]

The reality is that you spent $4.5 billion tax dollars last year and promised Canadians that the expansion would be built immediately.

Here we are today. You have given a second approval and you have not a single concrete detail or specific plan to assure Canadians when it will start being built, when it will be completed, when it will be in operation and what the costs will be.

[The Chair, Liberal, James Maloney]

Thank you, Ms. Stubbs. That's all of your time.

Mr. Graham is next.

[David Graham, Liberal, Laurentides—Labelle, QC]

Thank you, Minister.

Very quickly, Mr. Chair, I just want to add to the comments. This is the fifth standing committee that I have joined in this Parliament, and you have been a very easy-going chair, very easy to get along with. When things get tense, you just go zen. It's a really good skill to have. Don't lose it.

Minister, when Kinder Morgan owned Trans Mountain, where did the profits go?

[Amarjeet Sohi, Liberal, Edmonton Mill Woods, AB]

They went to their shareholders.

[David Graham, Liberal, Laurentides—Labelle, QC]

Where will they go now?

[Amarjeet Sohi, Liberal, Edmonton Mill Woods, AB]

Now, as long as government owns it, they will remain with the government, so Canadians will benefit from those profits.

[David Graham, Liberal, Laurentides—Labelle, QC]

That money will go to the green transition, as we've talked about.

[Amarjeet Sohi, Liberal, Edmonton Mill Woods, AB]

That is the goal. The half billion dollars that government will earn in additional tax revenue and corporate revenue will go into a green fund to accelerate our investments into a clean and green economy.

[David Graham, Liberal, Laurentides—Labelle, QC]

How many conditions are attached to this approval? Can you give us a sense?

[Amarjeet Sohi, Liberal, Edmonton Mill Woods, AB]

There are 156 conditions by the NEB, and there were 16 recommendations made by the NEB that we have adopted that allow us to deal with the cumulative impact of the project.

If I may say so, I think it's very important, Mr. Chair, to note that what MP Stubbs was suggesting would actually have gotten us into trouble. Issuing permits or even talking about permits prior to the approval would have been a violation of the procedures, and they would have been challenged.

We do have a plan in place to start construction, and the NEB is going to issue a certificate. They're going to put a process in place for the permits to be issued, and the construction is going to start. The preliminary work can start any time and the construction is going to start on this project in September.

[David Graham, Liberal, Laurentides—Labelle, QC]

What kind of pressure is not having this expansion in place putting on our rail system, and is it affecting, for example, our grain shipments?

[Amarjeet Sohi, Liberal, Edmonton Mill Woods, AB]

Thank you so much for actually raising that question. It is very important, because if we don't build the pipeline capacity, oil going to be transported and it will be transported by rail. We have at least seen more oil being shipped by rail, putting pressure on other commodities that need to be shipped. There are not only issues around safety, but growth in other natural resource sectors such as forestry and mining is being hindered, and farmers have also identified issues with not being able to ship their products because of the lack of capacity in the rail system.

[David Graham, Liberal, Laurentides—Labelle, QC]

Thank you.

We were talking about the green transition earlier. Norway, as an example, managed to put a trillion dollars into their heritage fund, and their debt-to-GDP ratio is negative 90%.

Is investing our revenue and investing in the green transition good for our economy?

[Amarjeet Sohi, Liberal, Edmonton Mill Woods, AB]

It is, absolutely. Investing in a green economy—in wind, solar, tidal, and geothermal, all of which we are doing—supports and creates green jobs. Those allow us to actually have a better energy mix. Oil and gas will continue to be our energy mix for decades to come, but as we transition, we need to build more renewables. This investment of half a billion dollars ongoing every year will allow us to do that.

[David Graham, Liberal, Laurentides—Labelle, QC]

Thank you very much.

[The Chair, Liberal, James Maloney]

Thank you, Mr. Graham.

Mr. Cannings, you get the last questions and you have only two minutes to do it.