Evidence of meeting #26 for Natural Resources in the 42nd Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was industry.

A recording is available from Parliament.

On the agenda

MPs speaking

Also speaking

Carl Weatherell  Executive Director and Chief Executive Officer, Canada Mining Innovation Council
Jean Robitaille  Chair, Canada Mining Innovation Council
Brent Sleep  Professor, Department of Civil Engineering, University of Toronto
Richard Paquin  Mining Director, Unifor

9:35 a.m.

Liberal

TJ Harvey Liberal Tobique—Mactaquac, NB

From a government point of view, I agree that we need to see further investment. If the government invests $50 million over five years, we reap the rewards over the long term, but we still essentially gave that money to industry. However, if we give you an endowment of $100 million, or $75 million, whatever it needs to be to get to that level, we still retain that capital as a government, so it's still a long-term investment for us.

9:35 a.m.

Executive Director and Chief Executive Officer, Canada Mining Innovation Council

9:35 a.m.

Liberal

TJ Harvey Liberal Tobique—Mactaquac, NB

It gives industry some skin in the game.

9:35 a.m.

Executive Director and Chief Executive Officer, Canada Mining Innovation Council

Carl Weatherell

Absolutely. That model certainly would work. An example of that being talked about around Ottawa is an infrastructure investment bank, for infrastructure in northern Canada. It's the same sort of idea, with capital put in by the federal government. You don't touch the capital, and you get the massive returns. It's a very interesting model, and it's being pushed heavily. You're talking about doing the same thing in innovation, essentially.

9:35 a.m.

Chair, Canada Mining Innovation Council

Jean Robitaille

With regard to your question, this possibility will be well-received. It's different from what we are currently proposing regarding the risk. With regard to innovation, we are presently saying that the risk is substantial compared to the kind of investment that keeps the capital found at the beginning. I see it maybe in a second phase. At this phase, what we need more is to have people on board and to move forward with trials and test development, with collaboration of the industry and the government.

9:35 a.m.

Executive Director and Chief Executive Officer, Canada Mining Innovation Council

Carl Weatherell

Leaning on what Jean said, I would like to add how we're approaching with respect to risk. We had a panel of mining CEOs meeting a couple of years ago, and they landed on three things. One of these was that we need to add innovation of the mining industry to the relationship with the Government of Canada. The Government of Canada has an awesome relationship with the mining industry through the Mining Association of Canada; it's incredible. We need to add innovation to that. This is the start of the relationship to get things going, as Jean said. It's low risk; let's prove ourselves. Let's prove that we work very well together as partners, and then perhaps look at Jean's suggestion for phase two.

9:35 a.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal James Maloney

Thank you very much.

Mr. Strahl.

9:35 a.m.

Conservative

Mark Strahl Conservative Chilliwack—Hope, BC

Thank you very much for being here.

I have a quick question. I have an older version. I don't know how much older, but maybe you can tell me. Dr. Peter Kondos is the chairman listed on this version of your “Towards Zero Waste Mining”. At the time, you were asking for a five-year $18-million investment. So $32 million is a big jump; it's $64 million if you factor in the industry's portion. Is it strictly because of the change in government that the ask has gone up? What else has changed in that timeframe? That's quite a substantial jump in what you are asking for.

9:35 a.m.

Executive Director and Chief Executive Officer, Canada Mining Innovation Council

Carl Weatherell

That's a great question, and I was hoping you would bring it up. There are a couple of things. One, as Jean talked about before, is that we were accelerating in getting more industry involved and getting more projects defined, so the scope of Towards Zero Waste Mining has increased significantly. It's basically around that. Also, when we were talking to government—both sides, both parties—they came back and said that for such a visionary approach it was not enough, we needed to amp it up. We were getting feedback from two different parties that suggested that we needed to go higher.

9:35 a.m.

Conservative

Mark Strahl Conservative Chilliwack—Hope, BC

All right. I could certainly see that from the current government. I'm surprised that ours was saying that. Anyway, to be serious again, I think everyone around the table is positive about the opportunities there for innovation. If I go back to the carbon pricing argument a little bit, innovation is great, and there have been great examples of it, but there are some processes and situations that simply don't allow you to innovate further, as far as I know. We've heard from potash companies about the heating intensity that's required. They electrified their vehicle fleet, they've done a bunch of things to reduce their carbon footprint, but their heating costs are fixed. The same is true for a diamond mine in the Northwest Territories that spends tens of millions of dollars on simply heating the mine shaft and getting fuel in on the ice roads and things like that.

Part one of my question is, what about the parts of this industry that you cannot innovate? Then to go back to your comment that we're losing ground in competitiveness, I guess I'm a little confused about why the Mining Association of Canada, which you said speaks for you on this.... I'm confused because if we're talking about innovation and gaining ground, why would the mining sector be embracing an increase to their pricing inputs through a carbon tax that admittedly would cause, in the words of your presentation, an immediate slowdown at a time when commodity prices are down? Just walk me through how we can help make up the ground that we're losing in competitiveness if we are in a less competitive tax environment.

Another question is, if the carbon pricing is supposed to force sectors to innovate, why should the government then also be providing government support for innovation? Isn't the tax supposed to force industry in that direction?

There are a lot of things there, but I welcome any comments you may have.

9:40 a.m.

Executive Director and Chief Executive Officer, Canada Mining Innovation Council

Carl Weatherell

I'll try and answer one or two of your questions.

First of all, you talked about competitiveness, how we've lost ground, and this is in the mining association's annual report. We're now second to Australia with respect to place for investment, so it's clear it's augmented. That's number one.

You asked the question, how far can you go? You used the example of a couple of companies. The approach we're using is not the same as an individual company would take. The challenges we're looking at and what we've scoped out and the road map we have as a result...is by looking at challenges and problems that no single company or organization can handle. It has taken almost three years to get to this point. We use an ideation process. We had senior executives, six CEOs, in a room for two full days, going from no boundaries. In an ideal world, what would your business look like? We started with that and narrowed it right down into defining projects. As I said, we're looking at it differently from a single company saying they're kind of stuck because they're doing things on their own. We can go as far as we want to as an industry, and again, we're looking at it as an industry collectively, large-scale, versus one company or two companies.

Certainly, there are some things that we aren't going to be able to tackle. You still have to process material. You're not going to change that. You're not going to be using Star Trek sort of technology to do that, so that is absolutely correct.

9:40 a.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal James Maloney

I'm sorry to have to interrupt you again. It seems that's my job today.

Mr. Strahl, thank you.

Mr. Rusnak, over to you. We have about two minutes left.

9:40 a.m.

Liberal

Don Rusnak Liberal Thunder Bay—Rainy River, ON

I was going to make a long speech, but I'll keep it short since the Chair has told me I only have two minutes.

Not all new mines are in the far north. I represent the riding of Thunder Bay—Rainy River and we have Canada's newest gold mine, New Gold's Rainy River project. I've been there twice since I've been the member and they have an amazing partnership with indigenous communities. Can you let us know what the Canada Mining Innovation Council does in terms of partnerships with indigenous communities?

9:40 a.m.

Executive Director and Chief Executive Officer, Canada Mining Innovation Council

Carl Weatherell

Absolutely. I'll try to answer that very quickly.

At the council level, one of our directors is a member of the Missinabie Cree Nation and the former chief from 2001 to 2010. He's on our board. He's the former president of the Prospectors and Developers Association of Canada and also a board member of the Mining Association of Canada. That's at one level.

At the other level, we work with networks of organizations so we have already sat down with the Canadian Council on Aboriginal Business with this road map and discussed some of the challenges, what indigenous people-run businesses there are that could potentially fit into this.

Another specific example is one of our projects is a knowledge hub for mining environmental data. Next month we're sitting down with indigenous peoples to look at what sort of presentation...how they would want to extract and access this data.

As you can see, their involvement is at the project level all the way up to the board of directors level.

9:40 a.m.

Liberal

Don Rusnak Liberal Thunder Bay—Rainy River, ON

That was going to be my second question, are there any council members who are indigenous?

October 18th, 2016 / 9:40 a.m.

Executive Director and Chief Executive Officer, Canada Mining Innovation Council

9:40 a.m.

Liberal

Don Rusnak Liberal Thunder Bay—Rainy River, ON

You talked briefly about your collaboration with FPInnovations. Can you elaborate on that a little bit?

9:40 a.m.

Executive Director and Chief Executive Officer, Canada Mining Innovation Council

Carl Weatherell

Again, we're both in natural resources. We're their sister organization and we reach out to each other to see what the common areas are.

Low-grade energy recovery is a significant issue for forestry, for oil and gas as well, and for the mining industry. So our strategic partnership identified a couple of areas. Low-grade energy recovery is one. Transportation is another.

We're having a conference call with them and COSIA this week or next week on the transportation issue itself, related to autonomous vehicles on surface, and water treatment. Some of the products they've produced through their work, potentially their nano-crystalline cellulose plant, may be relevant to water treatment.

9:45 a.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal James Maloney

I have to cut you off there. I apologize again.

Gentlemen, thank you very much for coming today. I do apologize. It goes to show you how important the topic is. We could spend a lot more time than we have today but, unfortunately, with the rules we're bound by, we don't.

Thank you again, on behalf of the committee. We very much appreciate your time.

We'll suspend for two minutes, then we'll pick up on the second hour. Thank you.

9:45 a.m.

Executive Director and Chief Executive Officer, Canada Mining Innovation Council

9:45 a.m.

Chair, Canada Mining Innovation Council

9:50 a.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal James Maloney

We're going to continue with our second hour. We're now joined by Richard Paquin from Unifor, and Professor Brent Sleep, from the University of Toronto.

Gentlemen, thank you very much for being with us today and taking the time to come to Ottawa. I'm going to open up the floor to each of you. You may present for up to 10 minutes. When you're both done, I'll open the floor to questioning.

Your microphone is on, professor, so I'm going to suggest that you go first.

9:50 a.m.

Professor Brent Sleep Professor, Department of Civil Engineering, University of Toronto

Thank you very much.

Thank you for the opportunity to speak to this group today. My name is Brent Sleep. I'm the chair of the civil and mineral engineering programs at the University of Toronto, and I'm also the director of the Lassonde Institute of Mining at the University of Toronto.

The University of Toronto has a long history of research and education in mining engineering. Mining engineering was one of the first programs started in the engineering faculty at the University of Toronto. Currently, the University of Toronto hosts the undergraduate Lassonde mineral engineering program and the Lassonde Institute of Mining.

The Lassonde mineral engineering program graduates about 30 mining engineers per year at the undergraduate level. They get a Bachelor of Applied Science in mineral engineering. These students go on to careers ranging from exploration to mine operation to positions on Bay Street in the finance industry.

As everyone is aware, I'm sure, there has been a big change or downturn in the mining industry. In the 2008-09 time period, our students who were graduating were getting multiple job offers at great salaries. Currently, things are a little bit tougher, but our students are still slowly managing to find jobs in the mining industry.

The Lassonde mineral engineering program, as I mentioned, is an undergraduate program. The Lassonde Institute of Mining is a research institute centred at U of T. The researchers in the Lassonde Institute come from across the university, especially from the civil engineering, materials science and engineering, and chemical engineering programs, as well as the earth sciences department at the University of Toronto.

The research ranges from exploration to extraction, mineral progressing, and metallurgy. There are currently 18 professors across those departments at U of T and 69 graduate students who are associated with the Lassonde Institute of Mining. The institute was established in 2000 with financial support from Dr. Pierre Lassonde and is housed in the Goldcorp Mining Innovation Suite at the University of Toronto. For the institute, we have an advisory board of senior leaders from the mining industry in Canada. The vision of the Lassonde Institute of Mining is to develop transformative sustainable solutions for the mining industry. The institute researchers and graduate students work closely with the mining industry to ensure the effective transfer of research to industry.

The research is supported by funding from the mining industry and, typically, matching funding from organizations such as the Natural Sciences and Engineering Research Council. We also recently have had support from Genome Canada. This support is really critical to the researchers and the students who are working in the mining research area at the University of Toronto.

Just to give you a bit of background, I can highlight a few of the recent mining projects that we're involved in at the University of Toronto. These projects are focused on improving the environmental and financial sustainability of mining through a reduction of waste produced, better management of tailings, reduction of energy usage, and optimization of the mining process.

There's a long tradition at the University of Toronto of work in the area of mine safety. We've had a couple of spinoff companies from the department that have developed internationally recognized software for the development of mines, particularly in guiding the excavation processes, and we have also done a lot of research in the areas of improving ground support, such as developing methods to identify where unstable conditions exist in order to reduce the danger of rock bursts, and those sorts of geomechanics-related types of research.

We currently have research programs that are looking into the application of unmanned aerial vehicles, UAVs or drones, in mining. This is a collaboration between researchers in the Lassonde Institute and researchers at the University of Toronto institute for aerospace science, and we're particularly looking at new applications in surface mining.

One of those applications relates to characterization of the rock faces in surface mining to identify unstable conditions and also to guide the development process of a surface mine. The other is to look at fragmentation analysis by flying drones over the rock piles as they're broken down to assess the particle size distribution. This project is currently funded through the University of Toronto Centre for Aerial Robotics Research and Education. We're in discussion with various parties in the mining industry to try to get further funding and support from mining companies both in terms of funding and in terms of access to sites to test out the new technologies.

Another project is focused on improving ore characterization to reduce energy consumption in comminution, which is essentially grinding rocks. It's estimated that about 30% to 40% of energy consumption in the mining industry is for comminution and that about 2% of global electricity consumption may be related to comminution processes. From current estimates in the research, there's a potential for 30% to 40% reductions in that comminution energy with the development of new technologies and the optimization of existing processes.

In particular, there's a great need to optimize the blasting processes. We currently have a project focused on relating the rock geo-metallurgical and mechanical properties to energy needs in comminution. With this better rock characterization, there could be better optimization of the comminution process.

Another overarching research project we're working on is mine-to-mill optimization using new sensors and data analytics to optimize the mining process from the mine to the mill. Mining companies collect large amounts of data, but there's often not great communication between different divisions within the mining company. They're sometimes using different databases and not making the best use of the data to optimize the entire mining chain. We're looking at situations where we can use real-time information on ore characteristics, for example, to feed forward from the mine to the mill to optimize the processes in the mill. We working with a major consulting company in developing these applications of big data and data analytics to the mining process.

We also have people who have been working on cemented paste backfill. This involves backfilling mine slopes with mine waste mixed with cement to produce geotechnical stabilization and also to reduce the amount of waste that has to be disposed of on the surface. This has been a seven- or eight-year project supported by a major mining company. The focus really is on improving the understanding of the properties of the paste backfill.

A senior professor who recently joined our department is a world expert in the area of geomicrobiology. This professor is working on mine tailings management, both in the hardrock mining industry as well as in the oil sands industry, particularly looking at the applications of recent developments in genomics to better characterize the microbial processes in mine tailings, which really drive the whole chemistry of mine tailings.

With respect to the big data applications, on October 27 we're hosting the Southern Ontario Smart Computing Innovation Platform. They're holding a forum on smart computing for mining, which will have about 50 participants, half from industry and half from academia.

Government support of research, innovation, and development of more sustainable mining techniques is critical for the university and for the academic profession. Government programs support not only fundamental and applied research but also the training of the next generation of leaders in the Canadian mining industry.

Thank you for the opportunity to speak to you today.

10 a.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal James Maloney

Thank you very much, Professor Sleep.

Mr. Paquin, over to you.

10 a.m.

Richard Paquin Mining Director, Unifor

My name is Richard Paquin, and I'm representing Unifor. Jerry Dias, our national president, asked me to come and speak on his behalf, since he's busy bargaining with Ford now. We'll see how that goes.

I'm the recently appointed new director of mining for Unifor. We represent roughly 11,000 members across the country, most of them in B.C. and Quebec, which represent roughly 20% of our membership of 310,000 members in this particular natural resources department.

Most of our members are from Rio Tinto, Glencore, and Mosaic, which is the big potash mine in Saskatchewan. We are the second-largest union in the country representing natural resources, after the steelworkers. We also represent many members on IndustriALL, which is the biggest global union in the world, representing roughly 50 million workers in a hundred different countries. Mining is a big forte of that area, and we participate in the system in as many areas as we can.

With regard to a bit of history about us, the former CAW was heavily involved in mining also, and in 2010 we introduced a resolution that was put up by former MP Claude Gravelle. We asked him to introduce it in the House of Commons, and it was done and acknowledged by the Speaker.

In order for us to best express our views on how to best protect this great natural resource of ours, Unifor has created a specific national industry council called the Mining, Metals and Minerals Industry Council, or MMM for short, that oversees this important industry across Canada. This council also recently adopted the same resolution, and I'll pass it on after.

What it allows us to do is to have great discussions with all of our members in the country in order for us to best protect and diversify this economy that is created by this natural resource. Former Prime Minister Harper famously referred to Canada as a super-energy superpower. Now if you combine that with the actual value of all of our natural resources, he was right. We are a force to be reckoned with.

Canada has an abundant supply of natural resources that fuel global capitalism and furnish Canadians with the many objects that make all of our lives more comfortable. Aside from being an energy superpower, Canada is one of the largest mining, metal, and mineral producers in the world. We rank eighth worldwide, after China, the United States, and mainly Russia.

As always, this sector has seen many roller coaster rides. Many of the communities where we have members are affected by the market, which changes very rapidly. During the 2009 recession, approximately 10,000 new Canadian workers who were employed in this industry were laid off. Fortunately, because the market picked up in early 2010, 2011, and 2012, 10,000 unit jobs were created within our membership across the country and it assisted the industry to flourish.

Wages are also very high in this industry. In 2013, wages across the country averaged $36 an hour, which is roughly 60% higher than the industrial average. Mining and smelting also make a very important contribution to Canada's overall balance, because we export all of those products. In 2013, it was over $72 billion worth of exports. This reflected high commodity prices as well, and also the growing volume for some of the mineral exports. The resulting trade surplus of all this was worth $20 billion that year, which helped Canada partly offset the enormous trade deficit that was created by manufacturing and other sectors.

Because of the big and often money-making industry that it is, firms spent more than $12 billion on fixed assets in 2013, which is many times the levels spent a decade ago. Because of this product, our GDP was almost $25 billion.

There is a big drawback with this. Because we are so high in natural resources, the market is really open to the global world, and many Canadian operations got bought out in the 2006-08 era by big, global corporations like Rio Tinto and Glencore, which at that time was Xstrata. Alcan got bought up by Rio Tinto. Vale also purchased Inco, which used to be one of the biggest Canadian mining companies in the world. They were all global industries now owned by global players, not Canadian anymore. The reason for that is the profitability in this sector is extremely high when the prices are right.

Because of this industry, we are mandated, under the Constitution document of the British North America Act of 1867, that every province has to be assigned the responsibility of overseeing non-renewable natural resources development. This means that each of our provinces and territories has the duty to draft the legislation and erect the regulatory bodies that oversee the mineral and resource development in its borders.

I'll just name a few. I'll concentrate on Ontario because that's where I'm from. A lot of those industries, like the Mining Act itself, oversee the prospecting, the staking, the exploration, the development of all these natural resources:

...in a manner consistent with the recognition and affirmation of existing Aboriginal and treaty rights in Section 35 of the Constitution Act, 1982, including the duty to consult, and to minimize the impact of these activities on public health and safety and the environment.

Many of other provinces also have similar acts. We also have the Ministry of Northern Development and Mines that actually administers the Mining Act and all the regulations related to it. We also have the Ministry of Labour that does the regulation and plays a very important role in this sector.

We have the Mining Legislative Review Committee, or MLRC for short. This is an advisory committee to the Government of Ontario representing labour, management, and the Ministry of Labour. There is a body of legislation that pertains to the health and safety of all of our workers in all of the mines in Ontario and in all of the mining plants. We also have the Mining Tripartite Committee, which is a committee that deals specifically with what the proper training should be for all of our workers to make sure they return home each and every day.

In order to deal with the new exploration that is feasible in Ontario and other provinces, the Minister's Mining Act Advisory Committee, MMAAC, was formed years ago. It deals specifically with the exploration and development of new mining permits in smelting. It currently oversees the development of the Ring of Fire, which we all know is a growing opportunity in northern Ontario.

The federal government also established a council a while back called the Mining Industry Human Resources Council, or MiHR for short. I'm on that committee also. It's a federal government committee whose purpose is to train our miners to make sure their skills are transferable across provinces. The unfortunate part of this committee is that everything is voluntary, so workers and employers, in order to participate, need to agree to do that. It's not mandated.

Our civilization, and increasingly an emerging global civilization, is built from the ground up using the mining sector and its associated industries, which are partially responsible for the astonishing increase in the diversity and quality of our human life over the past century.

Unifor is guided by the belief that Canada can responsibly develop its natural resources while respecting aboriginal treaty rights including, and importantly, consultation and full social economic participation. We cannot do this under the presumption that the status quo will automatically achieve these goals.

Natural resources are increasingly central to Canada's economic trajectory. Our challenge is to maximize the positive spin-offs of resource development while minimizing the economic and environmental costs.

I'll just make it brief. It's a little longer than 10 minutes.