Natural Resources Committee on Nov. 3rd, 2016

[The Chair, Liberal, James Maloney]

Good morning, everybody. We're going to get under way here.

Thank you to our three witnesses for joining us this morning—Mr. Nolan, Ms. Flood, and Mr. Hollings—and for travelling to Ottawa to speak to us today. In terms of the format, I will give each of you up to 10 minutes to make comments, and then we'll open the floor to committee members to ask questions. There are earpieces available to you, which I encourage you to use, because you may be asked questions in French, and some of the discussion may take place in French as well.

I will open the floor to whoever volunteers to go first.

They're all looking at you, Mr. Nolan. I think that means you.

[Glenn Nolan, Vice-President, Government Affairs, Noront Resources Ltd.]

Okay. I guess it's appropriate, since my people were first here.

First of all, I'd like to say that we're meeting here on the traditional territory of the Algonquin. It's an honour to be sitting here representing the company I'm going to speak for.

Good morning ladies and gentlemen, honourable members of Parliament, the staff, and my fellow colleagues here at the table. My name is Glenn Nolan. I'm the vice-president of government affairs with Noront Resources. I'm also a former chief of the Missanabie Cree First Nation here in northern Ontario.

I'd like to discuss the experience of Noront's working in conjunction with both the province and the federal government in engaging local indigenous communities in the development of our resource projects.

Noront Resources is a junior mining company with the largest mining claim holdings in the Ring of Fire, an emerging mineral-rich region located in the James Bay lowlands of northern Ontario. It's about 500 kilometres north of Thunder Bay. The Ring of Fire is considered by many as the most important new mineral resource region in the province, if not in all of Canada. Noront's lead project is our Eagle's Nest copper-nickel-platinum-palladium deposit. It is one of the largest high-grade nickel sulphide discoveries in Canada to date.

Since discovering Eagle's Nest in 2007, Noront has made extensive efforts to engage local communities to help guide the project and maximize benefits to those communities potentially impacted by our activities. Special efforts have been made in engaging the youth, sharing the importance of education and possibly a vocation in the industry. We also made efforts in developing skills that will prepare individuals to find jobs or business opportunities to support our projects. We are also involved in communities, going above and beyond what is required under the environmental assessment process. Of course, the last thing is the importance of infrastructure to the far north, where there virtually is a blank slate. There are no roads, no power, etc.

First of all, Noront employees have spent considerable time in the local first nation communities engaging with the youth through various programs such as youth camps, art projects, and school events. The programs in the communities have been successful in teaching the youth about continuing their education and about what mining is and what they can do to participate. A particularly successful initiative was the movie-making program called “So You Think you Know Mining”, which was offered by the Ontario Mining Association. It resulted in some of the youth from the Matawa communities that are our partners winning the provincial competition and being recognized at a gala event in Toronto.

The second point I'd like to make is with training. Noront has made considerable progress to provide opportunities for training and education, employment, procurement, business development, and community investment. As an example, we established the Ring of Fire aboriginal training alliance, or RoFATA, in partnership with the Matawa First Nations employment and training services, also known a KKETS, and Confederation College, located in Thunder Bay. The program provides skills-based training and guidance for long-term career paths for the members from the Matawa communities who are interested in working in the mining sector. Over 400 individuals have participated and graduated from the RoFATA program since it began in 2013. Individuals have had training in areas such as heavy equipment operation, environmental monitoring, diamond drilling, industrial trades, underground common core, and remote mining operations, just to name a few of the skill development areas.

The third point I want to address is the importance of the natural environment to the local communities. Noront's team has effectively established relationships over many years by working closely with the local communities to understand their concerns regarding the impact of the projects. From these relationships and discussions, Noront has redesigned aspects of our Eagle's Nest project to address those specific concerns with regard to water, surface development, tailings, and local economic needs.

Early engagement with the local first nation communities regarding the environmental assessment process revealed a common set of environmental concerns. After extensive consultations with the communities, Noront changed its mine design to reduce the footprint of the mine infrastructure, committed to recycling processed water to limit the amount of discharge, and developed a process whereby all tailings would be returned underground, eliminating the need for a surface tailings containment dam.

The last point I want to talk about is infrastructure into the remote regions of Ontario. While this is under provincial jurisdiction, the federal government can play an important role. The more remote a mining project is, the more important the discussion about infrastructure becomes.

The basic need for roads and power are uniform across the north, whether it be for local communities to address their needs or for mining companies when they are planning their projects. Indigenous communities and mining projects will share in the benefits of new roads and power lines in the remote regions of northern Ontario. Everything from lower costs for building materials from the south year-round to economic development opportunities come from this type of development.

I want to make the following points.

Engaging youth at an early stage is vitally important in laying a foundation for building awareness of the industry and building trust within the community. It showcases the importance of continuing education for students, not just for mining jobs but for the opportunities advanced education allows.

In the case of the environmental assessment, it helped our company design a better plan to reflect the concerns and ideas that came from the local communities. The federal government needs to work more closely with the industry to ensure that the requirements of the federal environmental assessment process are also reflective of the needs of the local communities.

Early engagement in training initiatives is also very important. It provides increased awareness among community members about the industry and the opportunities arising from the project. In the past, and even today, the federal government has supported training initiatives in the RoFATA training program.

A new road and power infrastructure in remote areas will bring not only benefits to the mine but to the region and the isolated communities. It's important that in partnership with the province, the federal government can play a significant role.

In conclusion, at Noront, our team believes that it is setting a standard for future development in our operations. It will create the necessary momentum for an inclusive, mutually beneficial culture for first nations, government, and industry.

Thank you very much. Meegwetch.

[The Chair, Liberal, James Maloney]

Thank you very much, Mr. Nolan.

Ms. Flood.

[Ginny Flood, Vice-President, Government Relations, Suncor Energy Inc.]

My name is Ginny Flood. I'm the vice-president, government relations, with Suncor Energy, and I am based in Calgary. Thank you very much for the opportunity to present today, and good morning to everyone.

I appreciate the opportunity to appear before you today on behalf of Suncor Energy. We're happy to return to the standing committee as you continue your study on the future of Canada's oil and gas, mining, and nuclear sectors.

My colleague, Steve Reynish, executive vice-president, strategy and corporate development, appeared by video conference in May when your focus was on the oil and gas sector. I'm pleased to be here to provide a perspective on the future of mining.

We have deposited the full text with the committee clerk, so I'll try to keep my remarks fairly brief so we have a lot of time for the discussion.

The mining sector in Canada is vibrant and important to the future development of Canada's natural resources. Suncor is proud to be an active member of the Mining Association of Canada, and we work to promote MAC's towards sustainable mining initiative, focused on three key elements: engaging with communities, driving world-leading environmental practices, and committing to the safety and health of employees and surrounding communities.

Since Suncor began oil sands operations in 1967, our industry has changed. It's grown and evolved significantly. We believe that Suncor is a great Canadian success story. For example, in 1992, Suncor went public with an IPO valued at $800 million, and today our market cap is about $65 billion. Next year, Suncor will be celebrating its 50th anniversary in the oil sands operations, the same year Canada celebrates its 150th.

With respect to mining, it's important to note that only about 20% of the oil sands resources are recoverable by traditional or open-pit mining techniques, with the remaining 80% recovered through various methods of in situ processes. Our past as well as our future success depends on being innovative.

Going forward, innovation will remain key to our ability to extract benefits from these resources for Canadians across the country for generations to come. We are keenly aware of the focus currently being placed on the transition to a low-carbon economy. We believe that Suncor has an important leadership role to play in this area.

Our vision is to be a trusted steward of the natural resources. We believe that through sustainable development focusing on economic prosperity, a healthy environment, and social well-being, we'll be able to help Canada meet its energy needs using oil derived from the lowest carbon intensity in the world. That long-term goal today means continuing to invest in various innovative technologies that improve our economics and reduce our environmental footprint, both in the oil sands specifically and across the company. On average, we invest about $200 million annually in technology and innovation.

Analyst projections in the foreseeable future are that the worldwide demand for energy will increase and that oil will remain a very significant part of the energy mix. The view of the future also comes with a growing recognition, especially with climate change, that the energy sector will need to transform itself to succeed in an increasingly carbon-constrained and cost-competitive world.

The World Business Council for Sustainable Development said it best in framing the 2050 climate change challenge as “9 billion people living well within the limits of the planet”. The goal of the energy system in this context is to deliver to nine billion people safe, affordable energy that minimizes carbon emissions.

At Suncor, we recognize the part we play. We are working hard to continue to reduce emissions. We measure our progress by the total emission intensity from the production of oil and petroleum products. We're committed to reducing our GHG intensity. We'll measure our progress against the target of reducing it by 30% by 2030. Our industry's ambition is to produce our oil with lower levels of greenhouse gas emissions than any other source of oil.

To reduce the GHG emission intensity, we are investing in new technologies. In mining, that includes waterless extraction processes, froth-treatment technologies, and autonomous haul systems. At in situ operations, that includes both solvent and microwave-assisted extraction processes, as well as more efficient steam-generation technology.

Of course, all of that requires collaboration across industry through organizations like Canada's Oil Sands Innovation Alliance, COSIA, and with government on public policy. We encourage governments to work with us through a robust R and D effort to reduce the carbon footprint and improve the economics of the future oil sands development.

Collaboration among energy producers, services, and technology providers, academia, indigenous groups, and the public sector is a necessary cornerstone to success. Together, we have innovative capacity and the paths to deployment to commercially implement clean technology to ensure Canada's oil remains carbon and cost-competitive. We can sell our cleaner oil worldwide, creating jobs and prosperity for Canada, while lowering global emissions.

Mining has also been an important part of Suncor's integrated model of operations. Fort Hills, our newest mine, is a reflection of that. Construction is now over 70% complete, with over 30-million construction hours safely behind us. We continue to advance the project with the aim of achieving first oil by the end of next year. The scope and scale of Fort Hills reminds us of the significant contribution that the oil and gas industry makes to Canada's economy. It underscores the considerable contribution in terms of job creation, revenue for government, and meeting the energy needs of Canadians every day.

We also believe that aboriginal engagement, working with the aboriginal communities, is also extremely important. I won't go into any detail right now, but I'll welcome any questions regarding the equity partnerships that we've just recently announced.

Thank you. I'm looking forward to the discussion.

[The Chair, Liberal, James Maloney]

Thank you very much, Ms. Flood.

Mr. Hollings, the floor is yours.

[Peter Hollings, Director, Centre of Excellence for Sustainable Mining and Exploration, Lakehead University]

Good morning, Chair and honourable members. Thank you for the opportunity to speak to you today.

Over the past few months, you have received numerous testimonies outlining the problems facing Canada’s mining and exploration industries, and I would like to focus on the roles that academia can play in solving those problems.

To give you some background, I moved to Canada 15 years ago—probably 20 years ago now—for an opportunity to work in a country where there were close ties between the mining industry and academia. I spent years working in Australia with some of the pre-eminent ore-deposit research groups there, and I've been at Lakehead University for 15 years. I am currently the chair of the geology department and director of the centre of excellence for sustainable mining and exploration, or CESME.

I think you've been told a number of times that a healthy mining industry is essential to Canada and that the industry is not possible without exploration activities that will lead to new discoveries. Mining activity is vital for our economic development, but it must be done in an environmentally sustainable manner so that it benefits all the constituent communities. Groups like CESME, the centre of excellence for sustainable mining and exploration, with the support of government, can provide the cradle-to-grave research necessary to ensure that Canada is once again considered a leader in mineral exploration, mining development, and mining reclamation research.

There have been some amazing initiatives recently, like the Canadian Mining Innovation Council's footprints project, with 27 mining companies funding research, and the metal earth initiative at Laurentian University. These are good examples of how Canada is moving towards, and sort of following, the Australian model of focusing research in key, well-funded university research centres.

In order for mineral development to be successful, we need to consider not only those exploration features but also the full mining cycle, particularly meaningful engagement with first nations, as well as developing sustainable, green technologies for mining, exploration, and reclamation.

Mining has been one of the major pillars in the development of Canada and has contributed to its wealth and reputation as a resource-based economy. Although we have had many discoveries and scientific developments to aid in the discovery and extraction of minerals, there needs to be a change in the way that wealth from the industry is distributed if we are to make the industry socially and economically sustainable.

Too often the people of Canada have received only a small part of the value chain from mineral extraction. That is particularly evident in the indigenous communities. Research and policies that will lead to meaningful engagement with indigenous communities are long overdue. This involvement needs to be comprehensive, from business development and ownership to infrastructure development and decisions about royalties and benefit sharing.

The 2015 CESME published a policy paper called “The Role of Government Policy in Sustainable Mining Development” and we made a number of recommendations.

We suggested that regional, sustainable development frameworks that facilitate indigenous peoples’ participation in decision-making are sorely needed. We see moratoriums today in a number of communities, prohibiting mining and exploration. This speaks to those communities feeling that they are not being adequately consulted at this point. All levels of government need to develop plans that balance the needs of industry with those of local indigenous communities.

There is a need for an effective consultation process that addresses the principle of free, prior, and informed consent as laid out in the UN Declaration on the Rights of Indigenous Peoples. This is necessary to provide certainty for the proponents, but also to ensure that the rights of those indigenous communities are fully met.

There needs to be effective local community involvement because this can lead to lower costs by hiring locally and providing companies with a social licence that ensures greater public acceptance of large-scale projects. The New Gold project happening up in northern Ontario right now at Rainy River is a really good example of where that's working very well.

There is a need for a regional strategic approach to environmental assessment and the establishment of an indigenous monitoring program to oversee long-term environmental impacts. There is also a need for government guidance in encouraging transparency in impact benefit agreements and other forms of agreements between the private sector and indigenous communities, so that the sector as a whole can implement best practices and not put individual communities at a disadvantage because of lack of information.

From a green technology perspective, our research institutions must provide new materials and technologies that can increase the value chain of resource extraction and that can be easily adopted in remote settings where technology and expertise are often scarce. Canada’s natural resource industries and industry service providers must have access to advanced research facilities to characterize materials and processes and to maximize the natural resource value chain.

If I can, I'd like to finish with a number of recommendations.

We think it's important to facilitate easier access to post-secondary education for indigenous students to ensure there is that next generation of professionals, or that new generation of professionals, who can provide their communities with unbiased advice and guidance for future mineral development. There's presently an overreliance on consultants, who may not always have the best interests of those communities at heart.

We need to raise the awareness of the importance of mining in southern Ontario and the rest of southern Canada to ensure all of Canada benefits and recognizes the benefits of the vital industry.

We need to facilitate entrepreneurship in those indigenous communities to expand economic benefits from the mineral industry. It's really important that we establish best practices for industry and community partnerships, and that we facilitate funding for research that spans both the science and the social science fields to encourage collaboration and not competition between researchers.

There are many conflicting values between resource companies and communities. Companies want to advance projects, and communities want to protect rights. It's important to fund research that focuses on how this is being accomplished to allow projects to succeed with everyone feeling their values remain intact.

Thank you very much. I look forward to the discussion.

[The Chair, Liberal, James Maloney]

Thank you very much.

Mr. Tan, you're up first for questions.

[Geng Tan, Liberal, Don Valley North, ON]

Thanks, Chair.

Thanks to the witness for coming to this meeting.

In your presentations, you all mentioned the words “sustainable” or “sustainability”. The word “sustainable” has different meanings, and one of them is “able to last or continue for a long time”. I know when the mining companies start their explorations or production in local areas, they bring in business, training for jobs, and money.

What can the mining companies do to encourage local businesses and stimulate local areas of the economy, so that a legacy is left once the mining company has ceased its operations or depleted the local ore deposits? How can the community sustain itself and prosper after the mining company has left the area? What is the best way companies can help the local community and local economy for the long term? What can the federal government do?

[Glenn Nolan]

That's a great question, because I think what it will help to identify is the opportunity to talk about a legacy that's sustainable. Any time you put people to work, you're creating a legacy, you're building skills, you're building knowledge, and you're building experience they can take elsewhere, if that's the opportunity and that's their desire in the future.

What we're seeing with more and more companies is that they're hiring more people from the local population. There are training programs that are more localized to encourage more people to find the skills and the experience through the training programs, so that they can then participate in the local projects. I think that in regard to sustainability, while the ore resource might be diminished or taken away, what you have is a group of trained individuals and companies that can then provide opportunities elsewhere, or go elsewhere for the same kind of work, or deliver the same kind of service.

[Ginny Flood]

In the case of the oil sands, they are long-term assets. Fort Hills and many of our assets are more than 50 years old. Working with communities and working with the aboriginal communities is a huge opportunity for us as well as for the communities. Reiterating the comments that Glenn just made, I think it's about creating the business climate where they prosper well into the future, and that's about the skill sets.

We've also done a fair bit of work, as I mentioned in my remarks, around looking at how we're working with the aboriginal communities. One of the things that we've just recently announced is an equity partnership with the Fort McKay First Nation and the Mikisew Cree First Nation, and a combination of 49% in our east tank farm project, which will continue to provide a sustainable revenue source over the long term. It's a business to business deal. It also helps understanding and increases the capacity within that community.

I think the other thing that we do a fair bit is a lot of work with the community. Fort McMurray is basically built around the oil sands business, and we do a lot of work within that community to ensure that it is prospering. At the moment, we're rebuilding Fort McMurray, and I would say the recovery is still under way, but it certainly shows the efforts and the work that we're all putting into that to build the capacity in that community to ensure that it's going to thrive well into the future.

[Peter Hollings]

Very quickly, I would concur. I think entrepreneurship is critical in leaving a legacy of companies, small businesses, that can thrive once the mine closes. On infrastructure, I think it is vital to ensure that we develop these mines in a way that we leave a sustainable infrastructure that benefits the communities long after the mine is closed.

[Geng Tan, Liberal, Don Valley North, ON]

Okay.

Another question goes to Dr. Hollings. From the notes, I can see your centre carries a very wide range of researchers and also has very good, close connections and collaboration with industry. Have you ever tried to move your knowledge, your innovation, from a bench scale to the industry, for example, running a pilot test on the industry side?

[Peter Hollings]

A number of the professors we have working on green technologies are coming very close to that stage. They're at the point where they are actively seeking industry partners to get from lab scale to the pilot study. That can be challenging. Some of the mining companies—especially when profit margins are low like they are right now—are reluctant to try new techniques or mess with a working procedure to find a way to test that thing.

We're finding that some of the newer mines coming on stream, like Rainy River or Zenyatta, are very interested because they don't have a developed infrastructure in place. They're more willing to consider pilot studies.

[Geng Tan, Liberal, Don Valley North, ON]

I see there is a need to move your knowledge forward, accelerate the transfer of your knowledge into the industry, and make use of industry. I'm asking this question because when I was starting university, my professor used to lead a big consortium that was supported by more than 20 companies, U.S. and Indian companies, so we had very close relationships with industry. Even with these connections, we still had difficulties identifying an industry partner that could accept us running the test in their plants. As a matter of fact, my master's thesis was delayed because of that.

I know the reason is that, whenever the manager agrees to allow you on site to run the test, it will typically cost the company money, time, loss of productivity, and other things. But as I mentioned, this is a necessary step.

In your experience or opinion, what can we do to move these things forward better and faster, and how can the federal government assist? Maybe it could be with incentives, or maybe you'd like to share some benefits with the industry.

[Peter Hollings]

I'll give you an example, and then I'll make a suggestion.

Some of the research I've been involved with recently has been looking at ways of expanding the footprint around a mineral deposit so they're easier to find. We've had consortiums of 20 companies involved. Of those 20 companies, I'm aware of two that have actively adopted the methods we've developed and shown to be successful. There has to be a willingness in the company to see the benefits of these and go ahead and do that.

In terms of what the federal government can do to facilitate that, I think you'll hear in the next session from my colleague Doug Morrison about CEMI—the Centre for Excellence in Mining Innovation—and there is a fundamental difference between the research we do as academics and taking that to a product that companies can use. Funding organizations like CEMI and the groups that do that is probably the better way to do that.

We also need to integrate those groups, the researchers all the way through, and again, funding research that is genuinely collaborative is a good step to moving those forward.

[The Chair, Liberal, James Maloney]

Thank you.

I'm going to have to stop that line of questioning and turn the mike over to Mr. Barlow.

[John Barlow, Conservative, Foothills, AB]

Thank you very much, Mr. Chair.

Thank you to our witnesses for being here. This continues the pretty impressive group of people we've had providing testimony to this committee. We can't do the job without people like you who are willing to give up their time to be here and share their experiences and knowledge with us. We really appreciate that.

Ms. Flood, I want to talk to you briefly. I appreciate that you brought up Fort McMurray. I think we'd be remiss if we didn't thank you, Suncor, and some of the other energy companies around Fort McMurray that operate in northern Alberta. We certainly would have had a much bigger humanitarian disaster if it weren't for companies like Suncor that stepped in immediately and helped a lot of the residents of Fort McMurray with escaping the fire but also with the recovery. I just want to put that on the record and want to thank you for all the work that Suncor has done in that regard.

My riding is Foothills, which is in southwest Alberta. I would say a large chunk of my residents work in the oil sands in one respect or another.

You were talking about your market cap being around $65 billion, and you invest about $200 million in technology and innovation each year. That's probably a couple of per cent of what your value is. Does that fluctuate? We know we're in a recession, a downturn, right now. Does that impact the amount of money that you're investing in innovation and technology? If your goal and your focus are to reduce GHGs and to find different ways to improve extraction technologies, are there opportunities to invest further, to commit more of Suncor's funding toward those things?

[Ginny Flood]

I would say our investment and innovation have not really changed a whole lot, even in the downturn. Part of our innovation philosophy is that we have to innovate. Our company was the founder in the oil sands. The only way we've gotten to where we are today is through innovation.

Even though $200 million doesn't sound like a lot, we also do a lot of collaboration through COSIA and through other types of partnerships, and through research with academia and so on.

I would say we're always looking for opportunities. I would say we're also very active in a lot of different types of technology right across the full spectrum. When we're looking at innovation and investing it, we look at how to leverage that. We don't do innovation to keep the IP to ourselves. We look at how we can share that so it's part of an industry-wide process and we can actually make sure we're benefiting as an industry. That's part of the concept—I know Dan Wicklum was here—around COSIA.

For us, it's $200 million. That does fluctuate a little bit depending on which projects we're proceeding with. It is certainly one of the areas that we have not cut substantially even in the downturn.

[John Barlow, Conservative, Foothills, AB]

I'm glad you brought up COSIA. We had COSIA here last year, and Dan. Actually they were here last week speaking with many of us.

It's impressive that a group like COSIA has been formed. Certainly, to have energy companies like Suncor willing to share their intellectual capital with one another is impressive. I will share with you the same message I shared with Dan, which is that I would encourage COSIA and the companies to do a much better job of talking about COSIA and some of the successes. I know there will probably be many more in the future as this continues to grow, but having a social media presence and a public presence with regard to what COSIA can accomplish, the potential that it's reached, and what you've already done, I think, would be a great step in the right direction. I was shocked to find out that COSIA didn't even really have a communications arm until now. I know they were looking at CAPP to do a lot of that. I think that would help us on this committee as well if other Canadians, besides those on the committee, knew what COSIA was doing.

Ms. Flood, how many people has Suncor laid off in the last couple of years in the downturn, and what would it take to get you back up to full employment? Again, many of my neighbours and my friends have put their houses up for sale and are moving back to Saskatchewan to look for other opportunities, which aren't out there.

How many people has Suncor laid off and what would it take for you to get you back up and start hiring again?

[Ginny Flood]

We've decreased our workforce by about 1,000. That is pretty substantial and we don't do that lightly. We've been looking at ways of improving our productivity through a number of different mechanisms. We've been on this journey since a few years prior to the decrease of oil, but obviously, in this low-cost environment, it is quite challenging.

The other thing I would say is that we're in a low-cost environment, but we're also in an environment in which we've been adding costs as well at the same time, through different policies, through different regulations, those types of things. We're really trying to work with government to figure out what that competitive climate looks like and how we can work together so that we're not eroding some of the cost savings that we're doing internally within the company through our cost measures, our reduction measures, in order to offset that low-cost environment. I think that's a really important area.

We also work very closely with our contractors. As we move forward, I think we are looking at other opportunities. We're trying to make sure that as we move forward even through the innovation agenda, that has an opportunity to create other types of jobs, other types of economic opportunities for people who have left the oil sands companies, because there's a lot of talent out there right now. How do we actually harness that talent in a way that we can make sure that everybody's working? That is the intent.

I would say also that we continue to look at ways of reducing our costs. Unfortunately, the oil price will probably be lower for longer. We're probably not going to get to the $100 as we did before. In that context, I think we all have to work very smart.

[John Barlow, Conservative, Foothills, AB]

I only have a couple of seconds left, but it's interesting that you say that you have these increased costs and a lot of that is due to regulations and policy. I think that's something we need to understand here as well. Policy imposed by government is not exactly helping the sector right now.

[Ginny Flood]

Can I just add one comment on that?

[The Chair, Liberal, James Maloney]

Very quickly.

[Ginny Flood]

I think one of the pieces around that is that governments—and I say “governments” because we operate right across Canada—and the way they operate are very siloed as well. As you develop policies, if it's not holistically looking, it accumulates cost on industry. That's what we're seeing right now.

[The Chair, Liberal, James Maloney]

Thank you.

Mr. Cannings.