Evidence of meeting #47 for Natural Resources in the 42nd Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was technologies.

A recording is available from Parliament.

On the agenda

MPs speaking

Also speaking

Lyle Thorsen  Director of Strategic Planning, MEG Energy Corp.
Mikaela McQuade  Senior Policy Analyst, MEG Energy Corp.
Leah Lawrence  President and Chief Executive Officer, Sustainable Development Technology Canada
Carla Miner  Senior Manager, Sustainable Development Technology Canada
Sarah Petrevan  Senior Policy Advisor, Clean Energy Canada
Patrick Bateman  Policy and Research Advisor, Canadian Solar Industries Association
Cal Broder  Chairman, BFH Corp.

5:40 p.m.

Liberal

Michael McLeod Liberal Northwest Territories, NT

Mr. Chairman, I also want to ask a question to Mr. Broder about his comment that we should first define what we're trying to de-risk. We are now studying this issue and we will be making recommendations at the end when we conclude. What would you suggest that we put in as a recommendation in the area that you were talking about?

5:40 p.m.

Chairman, BFH Corp.

Cal Broder

Thank you, Mr. McLeod.

I made some allusion to three things that are really difficult processes for a small innovator. One is to get through the door of who might use that product. For instance, I have a challenge of getting through the door of oil sands companies. I have the challenge of getting through their door because they don't understand what I'm talking about, but I usually don't know who's on the other side of the door, so I need somebody who knows who's on the other side of the door to let me through, and that's very difficult, first of all.

When I do find the means of getting through that door, we have a conversation on what it is that I do. The first thing is that it is a technology. Therefore, there needs to be an intellectual property discussion. The discussion quite often breaks down from the standpoint of their not wanting to sign a confidentiality agreement, but they want me to tell them what it is and how I do it. Well, I can't possibly do that, so that's the second challenge.

The third challenge is really in conjunction with that one, and it is that we need to be able to show that we can do what we say we can do. This industry is really interesting, because 3.2 million barrels a day of bitumen are coming out of the province, going through pipelines, and being exported. We're a small company. We want to buy 100 barrels of bitumen. It's next to impossible for me to buy 100 barrels of bitumen, right? It's next to impossible, so I can't even display and show my process without that association with an oil sands producer.

That leads also into SDTC. I'm not pointing at that, I'm not blaming them, and I'm not making any adverse comments. It's just the way it functions. We go to them and we apply for a loan or a funding mechanism. We can apply for up to, in some cases, 50% if we have a partner as well.

Now we have to set aside that money for up to 18 months, right? We set it aside in a bank account, because we have to show them that we have it at the beginning and we have to show them that at end when they approve it 18 months later. We can't possibly do that as a small or medium-sized enterprise. It's impossible. Others can.

These are some of the challenges we have as SMEs, absolutely. SME innovation is even more difficult because, as I pointed out, it could be 10 or 20 years before there's any income generated. As an SME, that's next to impossible to do.

I was fortunate enough that in my previous life I was an accountant, so I sold my practice, I retired nicely, and I took this on and carried on. I was able to do that differently, but it's a challenge. That's the biggest challenge we have as SMEs: we don't have that unlimited bank account that others do.

Those are four issues that really are the biggest challenge for us. I would suggest that the government, within their group of organizations, start looking at helping SME innovators by at least allowing us through your door to your people to say, “Here's what we have.” Once we show that, sign a confidentiality agreement, because you're not commercializing it. You have no interest in it. That's step two done. I could have that done in a day. On the third day I could have a demonstration with NRCan in Devon. I could have a demonstration with anyone, right?

Those mechanisms are there, but it's just a very convoluted process to deal with. I don't think you need to change anything. We just have to evolve and change how we're doing things and be more active with it.

I hope that answers your question, Mr. McLeod.

5:45 p.m.

Liberal

Michael McLeod Liberal Northwest Territories, NT

Thank you.

5:45 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal James Maloney

I have one quick question for you, Mr. Broder. How do you propose to transport the bitumen in solid form from Alberta to either coast?

5:45 p.m.

Chairman, BFH Corp.

Cal Broder

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

It's a very easy process, actually. We have two vessels out there. One is called a DOT-111, which is now prohibited from using hydrocarbon transportation, right? Because of the incidents that we've had with rail in transporting hydrocarbons in North America, we now have the DOT-117s, which are a heavier, bigger product, but our DOT-111s that are out there are safe for this product. There's no flashpoint—

5:45 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal James Maloney

Sorry—what is a DOT-111?

5:45 p.m.

Chairman, BFH Corp.

Cal Broder

A DOT-111 is a railcar that you see on pretty much every rail track that transports crude oil. It's a cylinder vessel that they fill up with oil. They move it from one location to another.

5:45 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal James Maloney

So the answer is rail.

5:45 p.m.

Chairman, BFH Corp.

Cal Broder

The answer is rail, absolutely.

5:45 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal James Maloney

All right—or a truck, I suppose.

5:45 p.m.

Chairman, BFH Corp.

Cal Broder

We can also move it in a shipping container, because that shipping container becomes that new transport vessel as well. We have the ability to take that product, bitumen, put it into a shipping container as a liquid, let it set up as a solid, and move it to the west coast. We've talked to Minister Carr's office. We don't fall within that new mandate.

5:45 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal James Maloney

But the shipping container would have to go by rail or truck as well.

5:45 p.m.

Chairman, BFH Corp.

Cal Broder

Correct.

5:45 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal James Maloney

Okay, so the answer is rail or truck.

5:45 p.m.

Chairman, BFH Corp.

Cal Broder

In the end, yes.

5:45 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal James Maloney

All right. Thank you.

Unfortunately, we're out of time. As you can see, we could go on for some length. We're very grateful to all three of you for taking the time to be here or to participate, as the case may be. Thank you.

The meeting is adjourned.