Natural Resources Committee on Sept. 20th, 2017

[Bev Shipley, Conservative, Lambton—Kent—Middlesex, ON]

I can do that, and I have.

I wanted to know in terms of a policy.... This is the director general of the energy policy branch, so that's what we're talking about in terms of policy. That affects all of Canada. We're talking about the green energy we can produce.

I have absolutely no resistance against green energy, but I'm thinking about the top of your statement, talking about a modern, clean, growth economy. There's a point missing there, and that is sustainability. My concern is that in my area I had a gas plant. I had a coal plant that became a gas plant, and is now idle. Right across the river I have two coal-fired plants. I have businesses in my area that are now going across the river because we're leaving a word out in terms of sustainability or successful economy.

In Ontario we're now adding a carbon tax, and you said natural gas will likely get phased out because it'll be more expensive because of carbon pricing. Is it a low emitter or a clean power emitter?

[The Chair, Liberal, James Maloney]

You're going to have to answer that question in about 20 seconds.

[Niall O'Dea]

I'll give it a shot. Provinces make the choices on generation, transmission, and distribution, so many of those choices—including ones made by Ontario—are very much to be relayed and discussed with them. However, the federal government is working actively with the provinces to help facilitate investments in new infrastructure, so $21.9 billion is being invested in that territory, which will ultimately reduce the burden on taxpayers.

I think that's critical. The better connected a system like Ontario is to its neighbours, to the east and west and south, the better able it is to leverage the best possible price for the electrons that are produced. That's the best way to achieve the economic rents you want from the energy you're producing.

[The Chair, Liberal, James Maloney]

Thank you.

I forgot to mention we're in a five-minute round now, so Ms. Ng, over to you.

[Mary Ng, Liberal, Markham—Thornhill, ON]

Thank you so much for coming here, and that was really informative.

I'll just pick up on where this is ending, and maybe you can help us understand how the strategic interconnections will help reduce those greenhouse gases in the electricity sector. While we were talking about Ontario, it would be interesting for you to help us understand how those strategic interconnections can actually help us achieve the reduction of greenhouse gases nationally.

[Niall O'Dea]

This is how we think it works. New electricity interconnections reduce emissions by enabling transfers of non-emitting electricity into a jurisdiction that would otherwise produce its electricity from fossil fuels, coal being the key example.

Electricity interconnections will allow for a greater utilization rate for existing hydro resources. Some hydro-rich provinces currently have a surplus of that hydroelectricity, so new transmission will allow for this surplus to be used by neighbouring jurisdictions that currently rely on fossil resources. Enhancing that two-way flow of electricity between regions may also help balance generation associated with variable renewable power, as I said before, by enhancing the geographic scope of the supply mix.

If we look at GHG emission reductions from transmission interconnection projects, it really depends on the size of the projects, the amount of power transmitted, whether the power is non-emitting, and what type of fossil fuel plant they're replacing. Just to give you a concrete example, for a 500-megawatt line that's used to move non-emitting electricity from B.C. to Alberta, for instance, you would expect to get between one and two megatonnes of GHG emission reductions, depending on the utilization rate of that line and whether non-emitting electricity in that instance was directly displacing coal, which has a higher greenhouse gas intensity, or natural gas, which has a significantly lower greenhouse gas intensity.

[Mary Ng, Liberal, Markham—Thornhill, ON]

Maybe you already covered this and I'm asking it again, but can you talk to us about where you see some of those strategic interconnections? Is there work already done on where they could be?

[Niall O'Dea]

Yes, certainly.

That's a big part of the study. I spoke to it a little when I spoke to the last slide in the annex of the deck. The key places where we see opportunities for interties are between B.C. and Alberta. There are two different locations where there are potentials for interties there. In some cases, these are simply strengthening existing capacity, so you may have an existing line but it doesn't have sufficient capacity to support the ambition of export that you might seek to achieve. The other place is between Manitoba and Saskatchewan. There are some opportunities, given that Manitoba is hydro-rich and Saskatchewan is currently, to some degree, coal-dependent and having ambitions to transform towards renewables.

If we look at the Atlantic provinces, they are interesting because they are all, broadly speaking, quite close together. They have a number of existing interconnections, but there are areas where reinforced connections or potential relatively small new connections can actually build out a grid wherein you can do system-wide planning and balancing of electricity resources across the region. There are specific examples there as well. Those specific lines are the subject matter of the studies that we are currently undertaking. When those reports come out in early 2018, you'll be able to look at the greenhouse gas cost per tonne of each of those different options. That, we hope, will support the next level, which is the policy dialogue and the political discussion that needs to happen around advancing any one of those specific projects.

[Mary Ng, Liberal, Markham—Thornhill, ON]

In your view, what can the government do to advance the interconnections?

[Niall O'Dea]

What we've done to date is support the convening of these dialogues and the analytical work to set the evidentiary groundwork for making these decisions. I think the federal government recognizes that the decisions remain in the hands of the provinces and territories. The Canadian energy strategy under the Council of the Federation is very clear to articulate that, and we are fully respectful of that. We can provide the space for that continued discussion, as well as potentially provide the opportunity to leverage some of the federal resources available to provinces to address their priorities, including through infrastructure funding, to help start tackling some of these bigger projects that have a public interest benefit.

[The Chair, Liberal, James Maloney]

We're going to have to stop there.

Gentlemen, thank you very much for joining us today to get us started on this study. Your contribution was very valuable.

We are going to suspend for a couple of minutes until we get ready for the next set of witnesses.

[The Chair, Liberal, James Maloney]

We're going to get started again. We have two witnesses for the second hour. From Manitoba Hydro we have David Cormie, director of wholesale power and operations, by video conference.

From Nova Scotia Power Inc., we have Mark Sidebottom, chief operating officer, utility. Thank you both for joining us today.

Mr. Sidebottom, since you are here in person why don't we start with you?

[Mark Sidebottom, Chief Operating Officer, Utility, Nova Scotia Power Inc.]

I would like to sincerely thank you, Mr. Chair and the members of the committee, for inviting me here today.

Nova Scotia Power is a subsidiary of Emera, which is the 16th largest utility in North America and both are headquartered in Halifax. Nova Scotia Power serves approximately half a million customers and owns and maintains more than 25,000 kilometres of transmission and distribution lines in Nova Scotia. Our goal is to provide clean, affordable, and “always on” energy to our customers, but we face challenges.

Nova Scotia has no access to large-scale hydro assets within the province. Our natural gas supply is limited and local offshore gas supplies continue to dwindle. Unlike other provinces such as Ontario and Alberta, using natural gas as a bridge to transition to low carbon is not an affordable option for us.

Over the past decade Nova Scotians have invested more than $5 billion in new wind and renewable electricity generation and contracts in Nova Scotia. Nova Scotia Power has tripled our use of renewable energy generation from 9% in 2007 to 28% in 2016. We have reduced greenhouse gas emissions by 34% from our 2005 levels, already exceeding Canada's national target. We expect to nearly double those reductions by 2030 to a targeted reduction of 58% in the electricity sector.

We have also reduced by one-third the amount of coal that we've used in electricity generation, which is equivalent to reducing three coal units or closing the emissions from those coal units. However, we haven't been able to put a lock in the door of those units because we require the capacity from those units to meet reliability. Transforming to cleaner electricity isn't as simple as replacing energy from one type, such as coal, or energy with another type like wind or solar because our renewable energy is intermittent. We need firm sources of clean energy that can quickly ramp up to compensate when the wind isn't blowing or the sun isn't shining. Our customers don't consume energy intermittently. We must match their lifestyle by providing a total energy package every minute of every day.

Strong electricity interconnections with our neighbours are essential to our energy future. Transmission that provides Nova Scotia with access to clean energy gives us the opportunity, not only to address renewable energy deficits but, potentially to share with our neighbours the new clean energy infrastructure that has been built in Nova Scotia.

Our vision for electrification of our economy and stronger interconnections is directly aligned with our national and regional climate action plans. Opportunities include new cross-border transmission connections, adding even more renewables to the whole North American power grid and the promotion of clean and efficient electricity transportation.

For Atlantic Canada, new and stronger interconnections will leverage large-scale hydro assets from both Quebec and Newfoundland and Labrador, creating long-term energy sustainability for all of eastern Canada, contributing to stability in electricity prices for customers here in Canada and in the U.S. and enabling significant carbon reduction. Incremental jobs would also be created for the new infrastructure.

Emera and Nova Scotia Power recognize the value of strategic electricity interconnections and regional collaboration and we have invested in developing expertise in that area. We have connected Nova Scotia to New Brunswick, New Brunswick to Maine, and now Newfoundland and Labrador to the rest of North America for the first time in history.

Emera Energy is an active trading and marketing presence in eastern Canada and New England, and Nova Scotia Power is actively engaged with New Brunswick Power to dispatch electricity generation regionally and find efficiencies together.

Recently, Emera has proposed a 500- to 600-kilometre submarine transmission link to carry clean energy from Atlantic Canada to Massachusetts, known as the Atlantic link, in collaboration with New Brunswick Power and independent power producers.

Building infrastructure takes time, and the cost is significant. Infrastructure lasts many decades, and it should be maintained for the long term and used for its full life to extract the best value for customers from the investment.

What helps developers is a clear view about the ultimate objective and some certainty that there is a commitment to stay on that path. Whether it's through legislative, regulatory, or funding mechanisms, all of these can contribute to the feasibility of large electricity interconnection projects.

Planning on a regional basis, whether for transmission infrastructure or even emission reduction, presents an opportunity to reduce or eliminate in-region transmission tariffs. The tariffs create trade barriers for clean energy to move to market.

We see great opportunity in Atlantic Canada, as well as the neighbouring provinces and states. We see alignment and opportunity between our vision, efforts, and government priorities.

We are aligned on the priority to reduce carbon emissions from the electricity sector. We see alignment in terms of our country's relationship with the United States on the need for regional solutions and export opportunities that reduce carbon emissions, both in clean energy generation and in the transmission infrastructure to move that clean energy where it is needed. Looking forward, we see the possibility of moving Atlantic Canada towards a regional self-sufficiency with zero-carbon energy.

Our strategy is straightforward. We want to see cleaner electricity generation used for more purposes: more renewable generation, better regional transmission interconnections, and electrification of home heating and transportation. This will lead to permanent economy-wide emission reductions and regional collaboration and sharing of resources, such as clean generation and transmission infrastructure, and it will create new clean energy jobs.

Thank you.

[The Chair, Liberal, James Maloney]

Thank you very much.

Over to you, Mr. Cormie.

[David Cormie, Director, Wholesale Power and Operations, Manitoba Hydro]

Good afternoon, Mr. Chair, and committee members.

It's a pleasure to appear before you today. I am video conferencing from my office in Winnipeg this afternoon. I appreciate the opportunity to provide input for your study on the value of electricity interties.

My qualifications in this area are that I am a practising, registered, professional engineer in Manitoba, and I am employed at Manitoba Hydro in the position of director of wholesale power and operations. I've held that position for the last 17 years. I've been involved in the operation of the Manitoba hydro system for the last 38 years.

My main responsibilities at Manitoba Hydro include directing the activities of Manitoba Hydro in the wholesale electricity markets, including marketing, sales, and training activities outside of Manitoba, both in Canada and in the United States. I'm involved in Manitoba Hydro's wind procurement program in contracts in Manitoba, and I am involved in the day-to-day management of our electricity supply, including the production and planning that involves the regulation of the Manitoba hydro system of rivers and reservoirs for hydro power purposes.

I have participated as an expert witness in many rate, environmental, and regulatory hearings in Manitoba, where I have provided evidence on matters under my responsibility.

My involvement in Manitoba Hydro's transmission and development plans includes the responsibility for the commercial arrangements that underpin our new 500,000-volt interconnection to the United States, and the proposed new 230-kilovolt interconnection between Manitoba and Saskatchewan.

In addition, I am involved in discussions with SaskPower on exports of surplus hydroelectricity, and I provide oversight to Manitoba Hydro's contribution to the NRCan regional electricity cooperation and strategic infrastructure initiative.

By nature, large Canadian hydro utilities like Manitoba Hydro have the potential to produce surplus electricity beyond that required by their customers, and routinely do so. The amount of surplus varies depending on the water supply and the amount of available reservoir storage. In high rainfall years, the hydro surplus can be very large. In drought years, there may be no surplus, and other generation sources must be used to meet the power demand.

In Manitoba, over the past few years, our surplus supply has been about 30% of our production, or about 10 billion to 11 billion kilowatt hours. Manitoba Hydro has been able to create value from this surplus by selling the electricity in the wholesale electricity markets in Canada and the United States. Revenue from these out-of-province sales reduces the cost of supplying Manitobans with electricity and is the major factor in Manitoba Hydro having some of the lowest electricity rates in North America.

However, none of these economic benefits or other benefits such as increased grid reliability and energy security would be possible without the interties that were built by Manitoba Hydro and its neighbours over the past 50 years. These interties connect us to those utilities and to the wholesale electricity markets of North America.

With that introduction, I want to provide a few comments today that address the following questions: regional electricity independence, low-carbon energy distribution, opportunities for alignment with the Canadian energy strategy, Canada-U.S. energy trade and relations, and employment and economic impacts.

On the first topic of regional electricity independence, to date, generation and transmission planning, and development across Canada has been largely focused within provincial boundaries. This is a consequence of geographic and political barriers. The exception to this is provinces with large hydro utilities such as Manitoba Hydro, BC Hydro, Hydro-Québec, and—in the past—Ontario Hydro. These utilities, which usually have large hydro surpluses to market, have optimized the development of their systems in conjunction with investments in large interconnections to the United States. Because of cost and small market size, it has not been economically viable to build, on a similar scale, east-west transmission in western Canada.

Transmission projects to interconnect Calgary with Winnipeg, or Winnipeg with Sudbury have been studied but haven't proceeded. To date, other lower cost alternatives have been found. That's not to say that no transmission has been built, but the existing interconnections between the western prairie provinces are, at most, modest when compared to the existing north-south capability we have with the United States. Utility benefits from large east-west interties just haven't been sufficient, to date, to justify the huge cost of building long-distance transmission lines.

Generation portfolios of utilities across Canada usually have had a low-cost, dominant fuel that's been exploited. The exception is Ontario, which has a diversified portfolio of hydro, nuclear, wind, natural gas, and—previously—coal. In Manitoba, B.C., and Quebec, the dominant supply source remains hydroelectricity. In Alberta, Saskatchewan, and the Maritimes, historically it's been low-cost coal.

A barrier to coordinated cross-jurisdictional resource development is time. Cross-jurisdictional co-operation involving major infrastructure investments like transmission interconnections require long-term planning and commitment on time frames measured in decades. These commitment times exceed the lifetimes of most provincial governments and potentially their policy priorities. As such, generation portfolios, with the exception of Ontario, lack diversity, and this makes them vulnerable to economic and political change, commodity price fluctuations, fuel availability, and technological and climate change risks.

For those jurisdictions that have relied on carbon-based fuels, transitioning to a low-carbon economy and renewable-energy technologies has additional challenges. The most widely available new, renewable-generation resource, such as wind generation, is intermittent and variable, whereas customers require a continuous, reliable supply of electricity. As a result, widespread use of wind and solar technologies is only feasible in conjunction with dispatchable resources such as hydro turbines, natural gas turbines, or battery technology that can adjust output quickly so that the supply and demand always remain in balance.

The questions we have in western Canada are, firstly, are there opportunities for jurisdictions like Saskatchewan and Alberta, which have to transform their generation fleets to work with their hydro-rich neighbours? Secondly, what are the benefits of improved and expanded interconnections, specifically a stronger interconnection between Manitoba and Saskatchewan, or a stronger interconnection between B.C. and Alberta? What is the value of a stronger, complete connection across the west? Do these interties help achieve the Canadian goal of the low-carbon economy at a lower cost?

To investigate these questions, NRCan is conducting the regional electricity cooperation and strategic infrastructure initiative, working with the western utilities and market operators.

With regard to the low-carbon electricity distribution, in western Canada low-carbon, renewable-resource options are not equally distributed. Alberta does have a good wind resource, but so do other western provinces. Saskatchewan has a good solar resource, but the other western prairie provinces share that same resource. All the western provinces have undeveloped hydro power potential. Thus, all western provinces have the potential of developing local, low-carbon electricity sources. However, the cost, variability, flexibility, and energy storage potential of the potential resources can vary dramatically. Developing new, low-carbon electricity supplies at least cost will require more intertie capacity so that the specific benefits of each potential energy source can be optimally utilized.

As for opportunities for alignment with the Canadian energy strategy, the strategy is a macro view of energy production, transmission, and use in Canada and in an international context. In western Canada, significantly increasing intertie capacity aligns with several of the strategy priority areas such as improving electrical interconnections, increasing connectedness, and addressing transmission constraints. Large new interconnections would facilitate the development of new, renewable-generation technologies, which would in turn help in the transition to a new low-carbon economy, another focus of the strategy.

With regard to Canada-U.S. energy trade and relationships, as I mentioned at the beginning, Manitoba Hydro has a long history of exporting its surplus electricity to the U.S. These exports occur over a large interconnection that has been developed incrementally over the last half century as Manitoba has developed its hydro potential. To put the size and significance of that interconnection in perspective, we have the capability to export approximately 50% of our hydro production into the United States. In contrast, our capability to export either east or west is only 5% of our production capability.

Given the importance of the U.S. market to Manitoba Hydro, both from an export and an import perspective, Manitoba Hydro is a coordinating member of the huge, mid-continent independent system operator, which we refer to as MISO for short. MISO is a regional transmission organization and a market operator that guides the secure and economic operation of the large portion of the North American electric grid. Its span reaches all the way from Hudson Bay in the north, to the Gulf of Mexico, across 15 states, and includes Manitoba. Access to the MISO electricity market in the United States is important to Manitoba Hydro. It is a deep, high-value, sophisticated, and open market. Manitoba Hydro, in co-operation with our neighbouring utility, Minnesota Power, is expanding our intertie capacity with MISO.

The existing Manitoba-U.S. interconnection capability will increase 50%, from 2,000 megawatts to about 3,000 megawatts in the export direction and 700 megawatts to 1,400 megawatts or a 100% increase in the import direction. This project is being done in conjunction with the development of the new hydro resources we're building in northern Manitoba.

This intertie expansion is still subject to regulatory approval in Canada, but the plan is to bring the second 500,000-volt intertie into service in 2020. It will be one of the most significant transmission developments across the Canada-U.S. border between Quebec and British Columbia.

Manitoba Hydro is just one of the Canadian utilities that are significant participants in the U.S. electricity supply. In 2014 Canadian electricity supplied 12% of retail load in Minnesota and North Dakota and 12% to 16% of electricity sales in New York and New England. In total, 30 states transact with Canada for electricity, with Michigan, California, Oregon, Washington, Montana, and Vermont being the major purchasers.

Initially, electricity trade with the U.S. developed to be largely north-south and seasonal, but in recent years Manitoba Hydro has been expanding its service offerings in the United States electricity markets. Now when the U.S. Midwest has a sudden surge or shortage of electricity due to wind power changes, electricity from Manitoba can be injected into or withdrawn from reservoir storage in Manitoba within five minutes to counteract changes in wind generation and help bring the grid back into balance. This is all done automatically, consistent with Manitoba Hydro's price and energy offers in the MISO market.

A landmark 2013 MISO study looked at the value of our proposed 500,000-volt intertie to the United States and at the way market-responsive new hydro generation in Manitoba could bring value to the MISO region. In addition to helping smooth out fluctuations in wind power in the northern midwestern states, this study showed that high-cost generators in MISO would run less often and use less fuel, resulting in emission reductions and production cost savings in the MISO footprint estimated to approach half a billion dollars per year in the 2027 study year.

The U.S. approach is to strongly encourage regional transmission planning, consistent with public policy goals. The approach exerts pressure to resolve cost allocation issues and remove barriers to the development of beneficial regional transmission.

This approach is not applicable in Canada; however, targeted federal government support to facilitate the development of expanded interties would be an appropriate made-in-Canada approach and would be consistent with optimum cross-jurisdictional transmission planning and public policy goals.

[The Chair, Liberal, James Maloney]

Mr. Cormie, I'm going to interrupt you for a second. I'm going to have to ask you to wrap up in about 30 seconds, if that's possible.

[David Cormie]

Okay.

MISO will continue to be a premium market for Manitoba Hydro; however, more intertie capacity between western provinces, particularly between Manitoba and Saskatchewan, will permit significant wind-hydro synergies, and the benefits to accrue will also accrue in Canada, becoming as significant to Saskatchewan as they are to MISO.

As it now stands, with a very limited connection capability between Manitoba and Saskatchewan, most of these synergies and emission reduction benefits will continue to flow across the Manitoba-Minnesota border.

Manitoba Hydro is of the view that significantly more intertie capacity between Manitoba and Saskatchewan is critical to the achievement of integrated operations on the scale that exists between Manitoba Hydro and MISO and to maximum emission reductions in Saskatchewan. More intertie capacity between the two provinces would also permit hydro to share a portion of the other market reliability benefits that exist from being an active participant in MISO.

Thank you. That completes my presentation.

[The Chair, Liberal, James Maloney]

Thank you very much.

Mr. Harvey, you're first.

[TJ Harvey, Liberal, Tobique—Mactaquac, NB]

First, thank you for being here, Mark. Thank you both for being here.

I'm from New Brunswick. I recognize the unique position you're in in Nova Scotia. We have spent a lot of time in New Brunswick over the past few years talking about smart grid technology and how it is going to change the playing field within our province, signalling a shift from being more an energy producer to being an energy manager over time.

The more evolved the grid becomes, the less dependent we are on the natural sources of energy that we traditionally use. If you start using people's homes as batteries and start using their vehicles as batteries, that's an evolution that compounds itself over time.

With the close proximity not only geographically but politically among the Atlantic provinces, how do you feel the four provinces can work proactively together, through strengthening these interties, to create a viable proposition that works for all four provinces as we look to create synergies that will allow us to export to the U.S.?

[Mark Sidebottom]

Maybe I'll answer that in two parts. First off, I believe smart grid solutions are absolutely part of our future. It's like any number of things. We're going to need a suite of solutions to actually get us to where we want to be and smart grid is absolutely part of that.

There are a couple of things going on right now. There is a lot of work between NB Power and Nova Scotia Power. We're keeping closely in touch on the smart grid front. We're actually working closely together on the type of infrastructure that can advance for the provinces, and then, of course, actually having the interties to transport any of the controlled energy between the two is going to be important.

The other piece that's quite valuable—and the witnesses who were speaking just before me spoke to it—is the regional study work. That kind of work is really important. So doing long-term, multi-province studies really starts to give you some insight on the most valuable ways to strengthen the connections amongst the provinces. You can start to highlight which ones are most valuable. You can start to look at those things and ask that when you look at the future for which of those connections will there be no regrets, which ones are going to just facilitate the future in just about every possible scenario. I think that's the other highlighted piece out of the study.

Those are very instructive to policy development and how we go forward from there.

[TJ Harvey, Liberal, Tobique—Mactaquac, NB]

I'll ask this question to both of you. What do you think is the single biggest challenge that we face, in each of your respective opinions, between jurisdictions in trying to overcome some of these jurisdictional boundaries in order to increase these interconnections?

[Mark Sidebottom]

I think it was touched on a bit before, which is we have multiple regulatory bodies. We have provincial regulatory bodies and we have federal ones.

When you're talking interties there's a conversation around the proportion of value to each of the jurisdictions and how that gets funded and the formula around that. In my experience I've seen that to be the most complex part of the equation.

We successfully advanced the maritime link project, which is connecting Newfoundland and Labrador to Nova Scotia and the rest of the grid. That's a complex multi-jurisdictional effort. It evolved over what is now close to nine years. That complexity was one of the biggest challenges as they moved forward from a pace.

[TJ Harvey, Liberal, Tobique—Mactaquac, NB]

David, did you want to speak to that?

[David Cormie]

Yes. The single biggest challenge between Manitoba and Saskatchewan is funding. Manitoba's electric sector is already 100% renewable. We already have a very large and adequate interconnected capability into the United States. For us to invest a half a billion dollars or a billion dollars in more transmission lines to connect to Saskatchewan doesn't bring the province any more value than we already have.

To the extent that the federal government is able to fund the Manitoba portion of that transmission line, it would make it a much more viable project for Saskatchewan. But it's hard to expect the ratepayers in Manitoba to invest in transmission it doesn't need for the benefit of Canadian public policy, for example.

This was a national objective, to get Canadian emissions down. Right now Manitoba provides emission-free electricity that is benefiting the U.S. It's helping them achieve their targets. It's not helping achieve the Canadian targets, and by investing in connections between Manitoba and Saskatchewan, that non-emitting electricity can be diverted into Saskatchewan and help them achieve getting their electric sector within target. It is a funding issue.

[TJ Harvey, Liberal, Tobique—Mactaquac, NB]

In a previous study we spent a lot of time talking about SMRs and the potential liability of SMRs in the future. When we talk about that we talk about smaller-scale energy production in geographic locations that are strategic to increasing the viability of networks and that fits right in with interties as well.

What are your thoughts on not only smaller-scale generation that's strategically located, but also perhaps partnership opportunities with private industries with things such as steam recapturing to produce clean power from existing sources that are already there?