Evidence of meeting #69 for Natural Resources in the 42nd Parliament, 1st session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was generation.
A recording is available from Parliament.
Manager, Power Systems Strategy, General Electric
Yes. I try to stay present with it.
Conservative
Jamie Schmale Conservative Haliburton—Kawartha Lakes—Brock, ON
Okay. That's perfect. I'm glad you said that.
We have a situation here in Ontario where, in this provincial legislation, local decision-making was taken right out of the process. They got a say, but it really didn't have much of an effect in terms of whether or not the local council agreed or...you name it.
Be that as it may, we in rural Ontario require a 550-metre setback from any wind turbines to a residential building. In downtown Toronto, you have a two-kilometre setback. My question is basically this. You can't put the wind turbines or solar panels in northern Ontario because they don't have the ability through the transmission grid to bring the power back down, so where do you advocate that these turbines be built?
Manager, Power Systems Strategy, General Electric
I've not looked at where individual turbines or individual solar plants, gas plants, or hydro plants should be sited. The analysis my team does is, if you have a resource mix, how should the plants that are there today be utilized? In the pan-Canadian study, we did evaluate potential candidate sites for new wind development, but it wasn't a specific site-by-site selection.
As I said, with any asset, whether it be wind, transmission, or thermal based, there is a social and environmental aspect to those decisions that any generating resource will have to go through. Evaluation on a case-by-case basis would be needed.
Conservative
Jamie Schmale Conservative Haliburton—Kawartha Lakes—Brock, ON
I realize that every energy is subsidized to a certain degree—wind and solar in Ontario substantially more. Where do you think we should be focusing on energy? You're advocating for wind and/or solar. In terms of this new generation that you're talking about, do you support the same kinds of subsidies that we're dealing with now in Ontario—the government subsidies?
Manager, Power Systems Strategy, General Electric
Thanks for bringing that up. It's a good question.
My advocacy here was using transmission as one tool to facilitate, whether it be renewable.... I didn't come here to advocate for one generation resource or another.
One benefit I tried to highlight was a diverse resource mix. It's important to have this diversity in a resource mix, whether it comes from conventional, thermal, nuclear, wind, or solar.
Really, what I came here to discuss was how the grid and increased transmission can be used as tools to facilitate some of that integration of all the different resources. I wasn't trying to speak specifically on wind or solar.
Conservative
Jamie Schmale Conservative Haliburton—Kawartha Lakes—Brock, ON
Thank you for clarifying.
In discussions with manufacturers, businesses, you name it, the number one thing that comes into any decision-making process is the cost of electricity. That is a fixed cost, as are labour, taxes, etc. They all play a part. As we all know, especially in manufacturing, at some point those fixed costs make it impossible to produce a product, based on what the market will pay for that product, whatever that product is. If that is the case, those businesses or manufacturing plants don't produce that here; it gets done elsewhere.
Where you were saying a mixture, which I was glad to hear you say, where...? Actually, first, I'll ask my first question, and that will lead to my second.
Obviously, you would agree that all sectors—manufacturing, business, agriculture, you name it—will benefit from stable, long-term energy rates.
Manager, Power Systems Strategy, General Electric
Yes. I believe that price is always important for customers, no matter what sector they're in.
Conservative
Jamie Schmale Conservative Haliburton—Kawartha Lakes—Brock, ON
Perfect. Thank you.
That being said—and I'm glad you said that—where do you see the most benefit in expanding wind and solar? You also mentioned a few others. If you were giving advice to this committee right now, how would you list your top preferences?
Manager, Power Systems Strategy, General Electric
I came here to talk about the benefits and the challenges of increased inter-regional co-operation and interties, not necessarily for one specific resource versus another. There are ways to analyze that, and it's something our group, GE energy consulting, has done in the past through integrated resource planning or long-term planning of the power system.
It's a more detailed question to answer than what I can do right here. It's specific to each province, to Canada as a whole, and really to what the goals are of the stakeholders. Typically, they're around price, the environment, reliability, and stability. Those are things that we have to weigh as a society.
Conservative
Jamie Schmale Conservative Haliburton—Kawartha Lakes—Brock, ON
Okay. I'll quickly go to Mr. Matthiesen, if I could.
Sir, do you have any research that you can quickly state on the impact of electric vehicles on the future of energy consumption here in Canada?
Vice-President, Power and New Energy, Advisian Americas, WorleyParsons
No, we haven't looked at that in Canada. We have done some of that study work in Australia, but not here in Canada.
Conservative
Jamie Schmale Conservative Haliburton—Kawartha Lakes—Brock, ON
In your best guess, being that there's no research, do we here in Canada currently have the ability to meet the demand as we move forward?
We do have a surplus—in Ontario, at least.
Vice-President, Power and New Energy, Advisian Americas, WorleyParsons
Is that to meet the increased demand from electric vehicles?
Vice-President, Power and New Energy, Advisian Americas, WorleyParsons
Absolutely. I think it will come from a slightly different focus on transmission. It will be more on your local distribution systems. You'll need to have more local, smaller generation, whether it's micro-turbines or, to Derek's point, a mix of renewables, a mix of technologies, or a mix of generation types that feed that local distribution.
I mean, the power obviously exists. There's an excess particularly in Ontario, where I'm from. We have too much. We generate too much. That can be used in a variety of ways, such as electric vehicles and batteries.
Liberal
The Chair Liberal James Maloney
Thank you.
Mr. Stenclik, how's your time doing? Are you able to stay with us for a few more minutes?
Manager, Power Systems Strategy, General Electric
I'll do my best to squeeze a few more minutes in. I appreciate your checking in.
Richard Cannings NDP South Okanagan—West Kootenay, BC
Thank you.
Thanks to both of you for taking the time to present to us.
Due to your time constraints, Mr. Stenclik, I'll start with you. You talked about expanding wind integration and I think about the cost-benefit analysis there. I'm wondering if you could briefly expand on that subject.
Manager, Power Systems Strategy, General Electric
One reason I spoke specifically to wind integration was that it was a study we recently conducted for CanWEA, the Canadian Wind Energy Association, and Natural Resources Canada. We looked at what happens if you add wind to the power system across Canada. How do you do it in a way that is reliable for the system? What changes to operations need to be made?
In other words, how does the additional wind energy change the existing operating practices of different resources? What's the impact on the thermal fleet versus the hydro fleet? What's the change in imports and exports between provinces and from the country as a whole? As well, what are the emissions and cost benefits of doing that?
NDP
Richard Cannings NDP South Okanagan—West Kootenay, BC
Thank you.
Mr. Matthiesen, you talked about some of the challenges we're facing. You said that one of the challenges was to properly educate the public on the apples-to-apples cost of renewable energy when significant subsidies to the oil and gas industry are provided in many ways that are not easy to see.
I just wonder what those could be if they're not easy to see. Hopefully it's easier to explain.
Vice-President, Power and New Energy, Advisian Americas, WorleyParsons
No, not really.
Vice-President, Power and New Energy, Advisian Americas, WorleyParsons
It's through numerous ways, including tax incentives, property tax reductions, and tax reductions. In other areas traditional fossil fuel industries are subsidized, whereas with renewables, if you look at the Ontario feed-in tariff program from a couple of years ago, for example, that was pretty clear. I believe it was 15¢ or so for wind. When you add it all up, it's very visible. It appears to be a lot more than other industries. We do a lot of work with the nuclear industry as well in Ontario and New Brunswick. Those companies don't tend to pay insurance. As a result, those costs aren't really included in the total LCOE.
Those are just some specific examples.
NDP
Richard Cannings NDP South Okanagan—West Kootenay, BC
You also talked about the tipping point we're coming to with electric vehicles, with the cost of renewables being close to or equal, or sometimes below, the cost of generating electricity through fossil fuels. When you're giving advice to clients, I'm just wondering whether you discuss the danger of stranded assets when people are considering new projects.