Evidence of meeting #87 for Natural Resources in the 42nd Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was buildings.
A recording is available from Parliament.
9:20 a.m.
President, Canadian Wood Council
I think, Jamie, you're agreeing that wood is safe, strong, sophisticated, and renewable.
9:20 a.m.
Conservative
9:20 a.m.
President, Canadian Wood Council
I get that, but when we sit around the codes table and try to make sure that wood is fairly represented in the codes, you wouldn't believe the opposition from other interests. Sometimes it's hard to get to a point where the playing field is equal, and you need a hammer to try and get there. That hammer could be the update of the real property practices, which probably makes sense anyway, right? The other hammer is something like this.
I agree with you that future innovation needs to be left open. Maybe we look at a carbon-first approach or at a more neutral...but we're just going to do damn well in that case anyway.
9:20 a.m.
Conservative
Jamie Schmale Conservative Haliburton—Kawartha Lakes—Brock, ON
Right. That's what I'm saying. We asked the officials from Public Works Canada whether, if this legislation doesn't pass, it would stop their movement toward wood as their preferred model for building, and they said no. That's what I'm saying. If they gave equal preference or something like that, I think what you're saying is correct: wood would stand out on its own, on its own merit, because of the technology and innovation.
By contrast, I just don't like saying we'll give preference to one industry over the other, because it can also halt innovation. In the wood industry you might say, well, we're getting preference anyway, so we don't need to get any better because steel and concrete don't get that, so we'll stop innovating. Then, if you've left it to the market choices, concrete might come up with something that does even better than wood. I don't know. I'm just saying they have a chance to innovate and compete in an equal marketplace.
9:20 a.m.
Conservative
Jamie Schmale Conservative Haliburton—Kawartha Lakes—Brock, ON
Right, and rightfully so. You're the industry, right? Absolutely, I get that.
9:20 a.m.
Chief Executive Officer, Forest Products Association of Canada
I don't think we've seen evidence to date of federal procurement seriously looking to wood, and I believe this bill really profiles that, so that's why we're where we are.
9:20 a.m.
Conservative
Jamie Schmale Conservative Haliburton—Kawartha Lakes—Brock, ON
Well, based on the conversations we had with the officials who were here last, they are moving in that direction already. That's already happening because of what you're saying now. But then if you're building that wall, concrete.... Even if they did innovate and became better than wood, it doesn't matter because you're giving preference to wood. It sucks if you're the loser.
9:20 a.m.
President, Canadian Wood Council
My only response is that if that's the case, let's not have the other terms in the real property practices. Let's make them neutral.
9:25 a.m.
Conservative
Jamie Schmale Conservative Haliburton—Kawartha Lakes—Brock, ON
I'm on your side. I agree with what you're.... What your product is saying is great.
I agree. I'm just saying that if you're building walls, picking winners and losers, it doesn't work out always because it stops the innovation and it stops others from competing, and competition makes everything better. You, the industry, have reached the point where you are because of competition, because you had to compete with the others and show you can play on this field. If we level the building code and make everything equal, fantastic, but saying that we give preference to one group or the other, that's where the rub....
Maybe that comes at the amendment stage, but that's where our heads are anyway, or mine is. I don't know; they probably don't want to associate with me, but that's where our heads are at the moment.
How much time do I have, Chair?
9:25 a.m.
Liberal
9:25 a.m.
Conservative
9:25 a.m.
NDP
Richard Cannings NDP South Okanagan—West Kootenay, BC
Thank you.
And thank you both for being here today.
Perhaps both of you could answer this. We heard in our other study on value-added industries in the wood sector from Michael Green and Bill Downing about how the B.C. Wood First Act has helped in British Columbia to change that culture of looking to wood.
At least what I haven't really heard myself around this table is how the Quebec Wood Charter, the Charte du Bois has changed things in Quebec. I just wonder if you could perhaps comment on that.
9:25 a.m.
President, Canadian Wood Council
I'm familiar with the Charte du bois. It had several layers.
One layer was that you must consider wood equally in public works in purchasing policies. Another level was that there was a greenhouse gas metric. Another level was a requirement to create des grappes, these are innovation clusters.
What's interesting about it—and it's moved forward very nicely, and there was an education component as well—is that it was a policy, nothing forced.
What's been interesting—and the same thing happened in B.C.—is that it attracted the attention of the institutions, both educational and public, and we saw a groundswell of interest, and now we see buildings being built of wood all over the place because there is a renaissance driven by the acknowledgement of the importance of the industry and of an approach.
I would argue right now that Quebec is competing dramatically with B.C. to have first place on the innovation cycle in terms of wood products and building systems, and it's becoming very interesting not only in Canada but from a demonstration perspective for abroad.
Quebec is well ahead, for instance, on the commercial side, demonstrating the value of commercial buildings, and B.C., for a long time, was well ahead on mid-rise buildings. We've gone from zero five- and six-storey mid-rises to well over 500 across the country now.
9:25 a.m.
Chief Executive Officer, Forest Products Association of Canada
The only thing I'd add is that there is the 13-storey project as well, which been a big part of the Quebec leadership.
9:25 a.m.
NDP
Richard Cannings NDP South Okanagan—West Kootenay, BC
Right.
There's another question I'll ask both of you, and perhaps Derek. I'm not sure who would have more experience with this. One concern we've heard about the bill, especially from the government side, is about exposure to trade litigation when you start prescribing that you have to look at wood and some regions may not be producing wood, and so they would feel that there is a bias against them.
Have there been any examples you know of, from the experience of either B.C. or Quebec? I know that in Europe there are various policies out there. Have there been any examples you know of where there is—
9:25 a.m.
Chief Executive Officer, Forest Products Association of Canada
Sensitivity given the current trade environment, but the B.C. wood first policy which I would say is wood first versus carbon first to maybe simplify it. We have not seen significant challenge, but I'd defer to my colleagues from B.C. next to talk about if there's any historical.
9:25 a.m.
President, Canadian Wood Council
I see wood product envy sometimes, particularly in the Atlantic provinces where they have 5% of the construction markets and through the Wood WORKS! program, we talk about building taller, different lay, more massive timber, but they don't produce it in those provinces. What's going to happen is when the requirements increases, we will see production in those provinces start up. That's the only thing that I've seen or I've heard, is more product envy.
9:30 a.m.
NDP
Richard Cannings NDP South Okanagan—West Kootenay, BC
I know, we heard from Irving that they were going to Europe to look at these techniques and--
9:30 a.m.
President, Canadian Wood Council
Nordic is expanding into, they're shipping into the U.S. now. They are seriously looking at eastern Canada. It's coming because there is more demand, therefore, people are considering that entrepreneurial approach.
9:30 a.m.
NDP
Richard Cannings NDP South Okanagan—West Kootenay, BC
Just speaking of exporting into the United States and you mentioned Michael Green exporting know-how, he testified here that he's providing know-how to an American group that's going to build a big engineered wood plant in Washington State. Is that something that you're concerned about? Is Canada losing its--
9:30 a.m.
President, Canadian Wood Council
Yes, bring it on. The more missionaries the better.
9:30 a.m.
Chief Executive Officer, Forest Products Association of Canada
I don't think we're losing, but I think we're.... We were at an event in Toronto, and there was another architect from Blackwell's who was talking about a lot of the opportunity and some of the global experience. I think time will tell, but we're not concerned that we're falling behind per se.
