Evidence of meeting #11 for Natural Resources in the 43rd Parliament, 2nd session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was forestry.
A recording is available from Parliament.
Liberal
The Chair Liberal James Maloney
Thank you, Mr. Zimmer. I'm happy to put on the record that we've already discussed this and we've already agreed to it. She is coming on the 26th.
Conservative
Bob Zimmer Conservative Prince George—Peace River—Northern Rockies, BC
I believe we need to vote on it, just to make sure, though, now that the motion's on the table.
Liberal
The Chair Liberal James Maloney
We already addressed your motion. It's been passed. She is coming on the 26th.
Conservative
Bob Zimmer Conservative Prince George—Peace River—Northern Rockies, BC
The day had timed out, though. It would be a quick show of hands that we support that she's going to come, from your side. A quick vote would be great.
Liberal
The Chair Liberal James Maloney
But Mr. Zimmer, we already voted on this motion. We voted on it on Monday.
Conservative
Liberal
Conservative
Bob Zimmer Conservative Prince George—Peace River—Northern Rockies, BC
We didn't. We didn't actually vote on the motion.
The Clerk
Yes. By the committee concurring in the subcommittee report that featured that motion, it has been agreed to.
Liberal
The Chair Liberal James Maloney
Therefore, it's already been voted on and approved by this committee.
Conservative
Bob Zimmer Conservative Prince George—Peace River—Northern Rockies, BC
Okay. I just wanted to make sure, because that wasn't my understanding. We're good to go, then.
Thank you, Chair, and thank you, Madam Clerk, for clarifying that.
Derek, I want to get back to you. You referred to Mackenzie pulp and Mackenzie paper. When I was 19, I remember stopping by to see my dad. He was a carpenter working on those hopeful projects that were part of Mackenzie and part of McLeod Lake. The timber came from around the area.
In case folks don't know what's around Mackenzie, McLeod Lake is right next door.
You and I both know the answer to this, but I think the Canadian public doesn't necessarily know it. Can you speak to how important the forest sector is to the indigenous communities across the country? I certainly know; I drive through McLeod Lake—I drove through there again yesterday—and see the activity there. Can you as chief speak to the benefits that forestry has brought to McLeod Lake, and what you see happening now?
Indigenous Relations, As an Individual
First of all, it's a renewable resource, and if we manage it properly, we're going to be able to see multiple generations of benefits from that.
I can't stress enough that the McLeod Lake Indian Band started out with a very small opportunity. We actually had to protest to get it. It wasn't because we wanted to stop the activity; it was that we wanted to be a part of it. This was way before my time. Then we were able to develop companies that worked in the forest sector and provided income to our community, which allowed us to develop and pay for housing, schooling and whatever. We developed a trust. There were lots of other things.
I don't speak as a representative but only as a community member. The ability that we've had to deal with.... We were the number one employer in Mackenzie at one time—a small first nation of 230 people that got into the energy industry. It was a stepping stone to get into other alternative types of energy, mining and all kinds of other things. Forestry has been the backbone of the McLeod Lake Indian Band since we can remember.
It's highly important, and being able to be a part of it is amazing.
Conservative
Bob Zimmer Conservative Prince George—Peace River—Northern Rockies, BC
Thank you, Derek, and I want to speak to Mr. Beck too.
I'll bring both of you into this conversation because you, Mr. Beck, referred to the stumpage issues. Again, that's a provincial matter, but I've been puzzled by why the stumpage system we have in B.C. is not really taking advantage of all the beetle-kill wood. I've said this many times, and this committee is probably getting tired of me saying it. It used to be the pine beetle and now it's the spruce beetle, and we don't have a way to target that wood and get it down while it's still usable. It just sits there and dies and becomes unusable. There's no better stumpage rate to pull that out unless it's completely dead.
Mr. Beck, you referred to this. It's making B.C. uncompetitive in our forest sector, so we'll start with Mr. Beck and go to Mr. Orr.
Can you speak to that, to competitiveness, and how important it is to have a competitive forestry? What are some things we need to do to keep it that way in B.C.?
Operations Manager, Capacity Forest Management Ltd.
On the competitive aspect, it changed to the lumber-based pricing system, and we're seeing astronomical lumber pricing, which is now creating a high stumpage rate for B.C. It's making it very uncompetitive to try to get those logs to the lumber mills as well as to market.
The approach of the NDP here in the province of B.C. is creating some difficulties with the lower-value, dead, standing pine trees as well as some of the trees currently infected with the spruce bark beetle, making it less competitive to try to get that volume out of the forest land base.
Indigenous Relations, As an Individual
Stumpage has definitely been an issue, and with the deterioration caused by both the pine beetle and the spruce beetle, we as a community have done a lot of logging to try to get that to market before it deteriorated. We had a longer life span with the pine beetle; the spruce bark beetle has a way shorter life span, so we got as much as we could.
That's one of the problems we face going forward: We have these stands of timber that are still standing, but they're unproductive. There's no way to log them because the economics aren't available. They just stand, so the area doesn't get replanted and into production. It's a big issue going around—
Conservative
Bob Zimmer Conservative Prince George—Peace River—Northern Rockies, BC
That's not to mention the forest fires that are going to be more prevalent, I would imagine, because they are there.
Liberal
The Chair Liberal James Maloney
Thanks, Mr. Zimmer. I'm going to have to stop you there.
Mr. Lefebvre, we'll go over to you for six minutes.
Liberal
Paul Lefebvre Liberal Sudbury, ON
Thank you to the witnesses for being here, and thank you for your testimony. This is great. We've heard from a number of witnesses about the importance of the forestry sector.
I'm from Kapuskasing. My dad worked at Spruce Falls. My grandfather worked there. Now I'm in Sudbury, which is a mining town, and I understand the importance of forestry for indigenous communities as well.
I would like Mr. Beck and Mr. Orr to elaborate on the indigenous forestry initiative.
Mr. Beck, you said there are a lot of good programs from the federal government, and I'm assuming that's one of them that you wanted to talk about. You obviously deal with indigenous communities, so could you share with us some successes from that program and ways of improving the program? Then, once you've completed your answer, I'd like to hear Mr. Orr on that as well.
Operations Manager, Capacity Forest Management Ltd.
One of the recent and very positive aspects of working with the province as well as with the federal government has been the foundation pathway agreement that has been put in place. We worked with the Shíshálh band on the Sunshine Coast and with the Lake Babine Nation up in the Burns Lake and Smithers area. We have been very successful in attaining aspects of tenure through the government working with the licensees to garner tenure for first nations to utilize and sell that volume and create economic opportunities and training for their memberships.
Working with government, they have some type of revenue-sharing agreement within these tenures, through which the stumpage is shared, and 75% of that stumpage revenue is actually returned to the nation. They can then put it into other business opportunities and create more jobs and training opportunities for these first nation bands.
Indigenous Relations, As an Individual
I think access to fibre is one of the biggest things that could make an impact.
With some of the opportunities we had in Mackenzie in starting up Duz Cho Forest Products, we were able to employ a number of our members, as well as non-members, within the community. We also had synergies with the pulp mill. We gave them our chips. We were able to really utilize those and make sure that we were part of the economy and push it forward.
However, not being able to get access to the logs we needed or a higher cost, we weren't able to....
I think having access to fibre in a way that works well for everyone is the key. That can come in many forms. We have our own amount of timber, but being able to have local ownership of fibre is key.
Liberal
Paul Lefebvre Liberal Sudbury, ON
I agree.
Mr. Beck, you touched upon training initiatives. I'd like you to expand on that and the importance of it. Is there enough support for it?
One of the things that we've heard about many times is capacity building in these communities. I've seen it first-hand. I was in a community in northern Quebec called Waswanipi. Twenty-some years ago they had a lumber mill. It didn't materialize, but then everybody had some training. They all left to continue other business elsewhere, and then when we provided them with funding to restart the mill—probably three years ago—they all came back. They had created this capacity elsewhere.
I'm curious as to what you think about how the federal government can support additional training opportunities.
Operations Manager, Capacity Forest Management Ltd.
The provincial and federal governments would be able to help fund some of the training opportunities. The foundation agreement was an example: We ended up training several first nation band members on logging equipment, and they now have full-time jobs. It's also working with licensees as well as logging contractors, who are trying to find that seat time for them.
It does come down to funding, because it is an extra cost. Training does cost money. They have to get up to the appropriate time and speed that some of these logging contractors need in order to make money.
Liberal