Natural Resources Committee on Nov. 23rd, 2020

[Bob Zimmer, Conservative, Prince George—Peace River—Northern Rockies, BC]

Thanks, Brian. Thanks, Mr. Chair.

[The Chair, Liberal, James Maloney]

Thanks, Mr. Zimmer.

Mr. Weiler, you're next for six minutes.

[Patrick Weiler, Liberal, West Vancouver—Sunshine Coast—Sea to Sky Country, BC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair. I'd also like to thank our witnesses for joining our committee today to talk about some really important opportunities that we have in the forest product sector going forward.

I'd like to pick up where Brian left off. My question is for Mr. Kalesnikoff.

You mentioned in your opening remarks a lot of the great jobs you've been able to create through investments in the new facility you have set up. In that regard, we've heard from some previous witnesses that the manufacturing of value-added timber products is labour intensive and that there can be some challenges in recruiting workers with the right skills. You mentioned the 55 new jobs you created. Have you experienced some challenges in recruiting enough qualified employees in this space?

[Ken Kalesnikoff]

We've actually been very fortunate. I think the excitement of our announcement has really captured a lot of interest. We've had a lot of people who are excited about the opportunity and have come to us looking to join the team. On that particular facility, we've been very fortunate in our area, the Kootenay area. I'm in Thrums, which is beside Castlegar and Nelson, where we have a lot of industrial activity. We have a beautiful area to live in so it attracts people who like the outdoors. With the business that we started, with the mass timber, I think it's really attracted a group.

We haven't experienced that to be honest.

[Patrick Weiler, Liberal, West Vancouver—Sunshine Coast—Sea to Sky Country, BC]

That's really great to hear.

Maybe as a follow-up to that, it may not be for your particular facility here, but I'm wondering what you had by way of recommendations for what different levels of government or industry could do to help with training and ensuring that people have the right skills to be able to leverage some of the opportunities that are there in the value-added wood products sector.

[Ken Kalesnikoff]

To broaden the answer then, I've heard from some of my colleagues in other parts of the industry that they are having issues. I actually just joined the standing committee with BC Wood in talking about a plan on how we're going to put in training for different types of roles throughout the province. It is not an easy thing to add to a very complex business when it comes to value added. It's not easy to get them up and running and working when there are so many challenges that come with it. But I do believe there's going to be a need for supporting training.

What, unfortunately, I have also seen is that when we are focused on that, we need to make sure that we're hitting the mark. A lot of times I've been on other committees where we formed an educational product that really doesn't hit the mark with industry. The people who work in government or work in that side of the industry, really want to see it succeed. If industry doesn't participate, that's what they need to look at to make sure they are hitting the mark. We have to hit the mark with the industry, so we're hitting the right people.

I will give you an example. When I mentioned our value-added facility—we put in a moulder back in 2000—there still isn't in my opinion enough expertise around moulders. We can get to the 80% level where we can run a moulder, which is very important in any finishing products. We can run a moulder up to the 80% level, but we hired a guy hired who, when he walked out of the filing room, could hear that there was something wrong with that machine. That expertise we do not have.

[Patrick Weiler, Liberal, West Vancouver—Sunshine Coast—Sea to Sky Country, BC]

Thank you for that.

In your opening remarks, you mention that there are measures the government should take to educate, support and promote mass timber. I know that you have many different products in this space with a wide diversity of end uses.

I'm wondering if you see any barriers to increased uptake of these products that you offer both in construction and industrial applications.

[Ken Kalesnikoff]

Yes, I think the biggest thing right now is that mass timber is new and the engineers, architects and developers are all excited about it, but many of them don't know a lot about it. A lot of false things have happened. Jobs have been quoted based on some type of a.... I don't even know sometimes where the information came from. They look at it on a per cubic metre basis and say this is the size of the building, times so many dollars, and that's the price, when so many other things come into play. We have learned that the sooner you get a facility like ours or Brian's or Structurlam or any of the Nordics, all the companies that are already in business, get them to the table and get them involved with a developer early on. There's a real chance we can save them a lot of money.

When I talk about promotion, government needs to support the industry by promoting it, by using product. A lot of buildings, a lot of infrastructure is going to be done. In B.C., we have a thing called the Wood First Act. Let's execute on it. It's not happening. We don't have the follow-through and we need follow-through. It's one thing to talk about mass timber being a great opportunity, which it is. It's another to really promote it and make sure that everybody is very well educated on it right from the university level. We need to start training our students at university so that when they come out, they're ready to use it, all the way through to the final product.

[The Chair, Liberal, James Maloney]

Thank you, Mr. Weiler. Unfortunately, that's all the time you have right now.

Mr. Simard, you're next.

[Mario Simard, Bloc, Jonquière, QC]

I thank the witnesses for taking part in this committee meeting.

I'd like to welcome our new clerk.

I have a quick question for Mr. Verreault.

In your presentation, you spoke about what the forestry industry could do for Canada. Based on what we heard from witnesses last week, it is now pretty clear that the forestry industry could be the sector leading the fight against GHGs.

On all my trips to Europe, I've been amazed to see large wooden structures, like bridges. That's not the case here. In France in particular, you can see large structures built of wood, even though France does not have a great deal of forest resources. You also stated in your testimony that you have many customers abroad.

I'd like to know what you think is causing Canada to lag behind in the construction of large wooden structures.

[Frédéric Verreault]

Thank you, Mr. Simard.

I will tie this in with what Mr. Kalesnikoff said, as Nordic Structures is an integral part of our organization. What Mr. Kalesnikoff said he experiences daily out West we consistently experience in Quebec and in every corner of Canada.

To answer your question, generally speaking, there are no half measures in Europe on the issue of fighting climate change. There is a will in all sectors of activity. That will extends not only to transportation using electric or hybrid vehicles, but also to all spheres of human activity.

Europe has taken action to improve its carbon footprint. It's not a question of measures to help the forestry industry, or promotion, or education. These decisions are made to build better with the pragmatic aim of generating better buildings and infrastructure. People are not asking themselves if wood is good for this or that, they are not making comparisons. No. People are choosing wood outright. As a material, it has proven itself and has been shown to perform better structurally, financially, and in terms of climate change.

If I may, let me use the city of Paris as an example. France is not a country with a forestry past or future, unlike Quebec and Canada. However, Paris mayor Ms. Hidalgo has announced that all the infrastructure needed for the 2024 Paris Olympic Games will be made of solid wood. That is because wood is a perfect match for the ambitions and objectives of the fight against climate change.

In Europe, people are unequivocally making a statement. They are leaving behind the chicken-and-egg dynamic in education, training and industrial supply. They have paved the way and are moving forward on that basis.

[Mario Simard, Bloc, Jonquière, QC]

I have another quick question for Mr. Kalesnikoff.

You said in your presentation that there is no program or funding category for value-added products. A witness made the same type of comment to us last week.

What could the federal government do to promote the value-added factor?

[Ken Kalesnikoff]

My comment about IFIT and NRCan was basically about the fact that a lot of money is given out to different jurisdictions and companies. I think if they looked at their record—and I'm just guessing, as I have no idea if this is real or not because I haven't investigated it—I would have to guess that a vast percentage of the money is handed out to the larger multinational corporations because they have staff who write proposals. We don't have that ability.

We run very lean and mean, so we don't have a specific person who does that, and I think that's what I'm referring to. If government really looked at what's happening, you're going to see that companies like Brian Fehr's company, our company, the gentleman from Quebec's company, family companies, are the ones who really push hard. We're the innovators. We're the ones who are always looking at creating opportunities.

I'm not picking on the larger corporations; they are necessary. They are good to have in the role. We need a healthy forest industry for all of us to be successful; however, it is skewed to one side. We find it very difficult for how many proposals we have put in that we have never been recognized and have never gotten anything. It's very frustrating to the point where we won't do it because it take a lot of time and energy to do.

Government needs to understand their audience and needs to hit the cross-section of size of companies. We have companies here in the Kootenays that are employing six people with 3,000 metres a year of volume. Those are extraordinary numbers, and I will guarantee you that that gentleman has never even heard of IFIT or NRCan. That's the sad part of the state of affairs when it comes to me from the government's perspective of what government needs to do to promote that, and maybe government needs to recognize that there needs to be an advocate for these smaller companies, because it is so difficult for them to access funding that is out there, and then the funding gets swallowed up by the big corporations because they have people already writing the proposals that are put together.

I hope I answered the question.

[The Chair, Liberal, James Maloney]

Thank you very much.

Thank you, Mr. Simard. That's all your time.

Mr. Cannings, we go over to you for six minutes.

[Richard Cannings, NDP, South Okanagan—West Kootenay, BC]

Thank you.

Thank you to all of the witnesses today. It's all very interesting. We always learn so much when we hear from people across the country.

I'm going to start with Ken Kalesnikoff.

It's good to see you, Ken. You mentioned Thrums, and I just have to put it on the record what a tremendous asset to the community Kalesnikoff Lumber is. I stopped in at a Thrums market last week, and they said that you had bought 300 jars of borscht as Christmas presents. That is going to keep that very valuable market going. Thank you for that.

Getting back to the topic at hand, you mentioned government procurement and what the government could do to help innovators in this space, in particular in mass timber engineered wood. I'm just wondering if you could expand on that.

As everybody here probably knows, I have a private member's bill that spoke to that in the last Parliament. It's in the Senate right now, coming back the other way. That mass timber construction would have value for this country and for the environment. How could the government help out in that manner with procurement to build better buildings and really support the forest industry?

[Ken Kalesnikoff]

Thank you, Richard. I appreciate it.

I think I'll start by saying that the mass timber push right now really does hit all of the boxes. It ticks all the boxes. It creates jobs. It creates high-paying jobs. These are not minimum-wage jobs. It creates opportunity for young people to be excited about the forest industry. We have some young folks working with us right now, doing the drawing and engineering work, and it's amazing to me when I go and look at it. It's very exciting.

I think the opportunity around the better utilization of our resources is tremendous. I think we can create so many more jobs by using forest fibre in that manner. I'm probably biased, but I can't help but give it very, very high marks as an industry, as a future for Canada and for British Columbia especially. However, we are struggling constantly about promoting it. We're always battling.

We made an announcement in our community of Thrums, which you mentioned, Richard. We have 200 people in Thrums. We're a metropolis, right? In Nelson and Castlegar, either side of us, there are 8,000 to 10,000 people.

We made the announcement of a $35-million investment in our community. We could have very easily put it on the other side of the border, but because of our commitment, as Brian said, to Canada and British Columbia, and as a family, we want to stay in Canada. This is where we've lived and have loved being involved. However, one of the first responses we got when we made the announcement was from someone on social media. My daughter said I shouldn't get excited about it, but it's a culture. It's the culture of, “You guys are just going to clear-cut more trees”.

I'm not an expert in the carbon equation, but I will say that it's very frustrating not to be able to have a specific explanation and understanding. In my mind, when we cut trees down, the new trees that are growing are the ones that use carbon. As the trees get older, they sequester carbon. We take those older trees and we turn them into lumber. We take that lumber and we put it into homes, or in this case mass timber, so we are sequestering that carbon. Then we are planting three trees for every tree that we cut down. Those trees again use carbon. The cycle is pretty simple for me, yet I got a presentation about the pellet industry and how bad it is from the carbon side.

Richard, if I'm digressing, I'm sorry, but there is so much confusion around how the carbon issue needs to be packaged for Canada and for the world.

We have all these scientists saying different things. All it is doing is confusing the issue. We need a leadership role. That leadership needs to happen from the government, and it needs to happen from the side of being able to promote mass timber. We need that promotion and support from government so that when people say they don't like cutting trees down, we understand why. When we want to start putting more forests aside for parks or species at risk like caribou, that's more stress on the industry. On the one hand we want to promote the industry and get it going, and on the other hand we're shutting the forest land base down and we're not able to take it out. We really need government to promote and support the industry by doing things that will celebrate the fact that we're using lumber for mass timber and creating a mass timber industry.

[The Chair, Liberal, James Maloney]

You have only 10 seconds left, Mr. Cannings.

[Richard Cannings, NDP, South Okanagan—West Kootenay, BC]

I'll take those 10 seconds to just say thank you. The important thing that I see in something like mass timber is that we are creating more jobs. For every tree we harvest, we create more jobs and value for Canadians for each of those logs. That's how I view it.

[Ken Kalesnikoff]

Yes: high-paying jobs.

[The Chair, Liberal, James Maloney]

Thank you, Mr. Cannings.

We're moving into the second round.

Mr. Patzer, you have five minutes.

[Jeremy Patzer, Conservative, Cypress Hills—Grasslands, SK]

Thank you very much, Mr. Chair.

Mr. Kalesnikoff, I found it quite fascinating where you were going with the equation around sequestration there. I'm wondering about the numbers, I guess, with regard to the impacts on wildfires. I'm sure we can all agree that wildfires are a threat to public safety and that they interfere with the amazing ability of Canada's forests to sequester and store carbon dioxide. In your view, what are the most important and effective measures that could reduce the risk of wildfires through forest management?

[Ken Kalesnikoff]

This is a subject that's a bit dear to my heart. Growing up having the ability to work with my grandfather and his brothers, my uncle Koozma gave us a mantra: take care of the land, and the land will take of you.

We are farmers of the land, in the forest industry. We are no longer what we were painted with back in the sixties and seventies, as some kind of neanderthals. The amount of work we go through, the technology that is used to put out a cutting permit, is unbelievable.

My grandfather would never believe what we're doing to cut a tree down, the amount of work and effort. We are all environmentalists. We all work really hard at doing the right thing in the forest industry, and that's true right across Canada, I believe. We need to be celebrating this. I have challenged the B.C. government to put out commercials to celebrate it and to promote it and to tell people that we are actually planting trees.

That's the most critical thing for me: we need the forest industry healthy, we need the forests healthy and we need to manage them.

I'm starting to sound like Donald Trump when I throw things out here as ideas, but when we think about the pine beetle epidemic that happened in central British Columbia—it started in Tweedsmuir Park—I have to believe that had we dealt with it in the park, it wouldn't have come out of the park and exponentially grown to the point that it actually ended up in Alberta. We need to manage the forests as we can, as the experts that we have.

[Jeremy Patzer, Conservative, Cypress Hills—Grasslands, SK]

Has there been any federal involvement with you or with the industry specifically when it comes to these efforts, whether with the forest fire issue or with bugs such as you were just talking about?

[Ken Kalesnikoff]

Yes, there has been a lot of conversation. There's a lot of fireproofing, there's a lot of work being done around communities, but—I don't know how to say this nicely—it's a half-hearted attempt. We're not really making sure that we're putting our best foot forward and are really focused on it.

We should be celebrating the forest industry, and right now, because of the stigma behind cutting trees down, as Brian said earlier, it gets in the way. We're not making right decisions; we're making emotional decisions.

[Jeremy Patzer, Conservative, Cypress Hills—Grasslands, SK]

Do you feel that there has been a bit of a misinformation campaign against Canadian forestry and against our resources in general?