Natural Resources Committee on March 2nd, 2022

[Jonathan Wilkinson, Liberal, North Vancouver, BC]

What I will say, Mr. Angus, is that the focus for us is on reducing emissions in order to achieve our climate targets and doing so in a manner that will ensure strong economic opportunities across this country. We will continue to do that in the areas of CCUS, hydrogen, biofuels, steel manufacturing, aluminum and everywhere else.

[Charlie Angus, NDP, Timmins—James Bay, ON]

Thank you.

The other area that's key for what's being done with net zero is to increase exports and send them offshore, because, as you know, none of that is counted on Canada's emissions.

Key to that is TMX. The Canadian public was told it will cost $5.4 billion to build, then $7.4 billion, then $ 9.6 billion, and then $16 billion. We're at $21 billion, which would be an extraordinary amount of money to spend on anything, and this is all predicated on a vast increase in bitumen exports offshore.

Is the taxpayer on the hook for this $21 billion? Are we going to continue to pay for this?

[Jonathan Wilkinson, Liberal, North Vancouver, BC]

I think the Minister of Finance was quite clear that the additional capital that's going to be required to finish that will be raised from private sources.

The business case for the project remains strong. It will continue to do what it was supposed to do, which is to take oil off of rail and ensure that we are addressing the discount we get on our resources in the United States, because we have no ability to ship oil to other parts of the world.

[Charlie Angus, NDP, Timmins—James Bay, ON]

And helping with the export market that CAPP says is going to allow them the extra at least million barrels a year. You're giving them the technology to do that.

[Jonathan Wilkinson, Liberal, North Vancouver, BC]

Mr. Angus, we are moving through an energy transition. It is not like you can flip a switch overnight.

[Charlie Angus, NDP, Timmins—James Bay, ON]

I totally get that—

[The Chair, Liberal, John Aldag]

We're out of time on this now.

[Jonathan Wilkinson, Liberal, North Vancouver, BC]

With regard to the cars on the road right now in this country, 96% of them use gasoline.

[Charlie Angus, NDP, Timmins—James Bay, ON]

But you're spending the money on this, and we don't see the switch getting turned.

[The Chair, Liberal, John Aldag]

That's the end of the six minutes.

Thank you, Minister, for being here. I know we're up against that hard stop time, so you're going to have to pack up.

We have the officials who will stay with us. I've been told we have the room with the interpretation and staff until 6:30, if we want to make up a bit of the time we've lost. I'll leave it to the will of the committee. We'll also need to go through the vote process.

We can now get into our second round. I jumped through the pleasantries that we usually offer, so I would like to take a moment to officially welcome the officials who are here.

From the Department of Natural Resources, we have John Hannaford, deputy minister, in person, which is a huge thing; as well as Shirley Carruthers, assistant deputy minister, corporate management and services sector, and chief financial officer. Welcome to both of you.

Online joining us, we have Glenn Hargrove, assistant deputy minister, fuels sector; Mollie Johnson, assistant deputy minister, low carbon energy sector; Jeff Labonté, assistant deputy minister, lands and minerals sector; Beth MacNeil, assistant deputy minister, Canadian forest service; Drew Leyburne, assistant deputy minister, energy efficiency and technology sector; Frank Des Rosiers, assistant deputy minister, strategic policy and innovation sector; and Angie Bruce, assistant deputy minister, major projects management office and indigenous affairs and reconciliation sector.

It's quite a strong support group from departmental officials. Welcome to each of you.

With that, we're ready to go into our second round.

I also want to welcome Mr. Zimmer, who's here today, and Mr. Morrice, who has joined us.

Our next round is for five minutes. First up, I have Mr. Maguire.

Mr. Maguire, if you're ready, we'll go over to you.

[Larry Maguire, Conservative, Brandon—Souris, MB]

Thanks, Mr. Chair.

There are a number of questions that I'd like to ask, and I'll let the department determine who should answer them. I appreciate that they're all here today and appreciate the minister for his time here today as well.

I'm thinking of Atomic Energy of Canada. There are some funds that have been put forward from the Department of Defence to various organizations in the Canadian safety and security program. With the supplementary estimates, as I mentioned, there's DND, for the Canadian safety and security program. In January, the Swedish Security Service announced an investigation of drones at three of its nuclear power plants. There have also been reports over the years of other unknown drone-type flying objects over Canadian nuclear facilities.

With the security that we're in today, it's been recently announced in the United States that legislation has passed in their National Defense Authorization Act for the Nuclear Regulatory Commission to report “the number of reported incidents, and descriptions thereof, of unidentified aerial phenomena or drones of unknown origin associated with nuclear power generating stations, nuclear fuel storage sites, or other sites or facilities regulated by the Nuclear Regulatory Commission.”

I'm wondering if any of the department officials are aware of the legislation that was just passed in U.S. Congress regarding these specific clauses.

[John Hannaford, Deputy Minister, Department of Natural Resources]

Thank you very much for the question.

I must admit I am not familiar with that. I can say, however, that overall security of our nuclear facilities is obviously something that's of extraordinary importance, including through the functioning of the regulators.

[Larry Maguire, Conservative, Brandon—Souris, MB]

Thanks. I'll send you the information. We'll make it available to you.

Have you received reports of these drones or unidentified aerial phenomena in or near Canadian nuclear facilities?

[John Hannaford]

I have not.

[Larry Maguire, Conservative, Brandon—Souris, MB]

Can you ask your officials to inquire and report back to the committee in writing anything they know about them?

[John Hannaford]

We can do so, yes.

[Larry Maguire, Conservative, Brandon—Souris, MB]

Thank you.

Are reports of violations in or around nuclear facilities publicly disclosed?

[John Hannaford]

I'm sorry, Mr. Chair, but perhaps I could turn to one of my colleagues who is more directly responsible for nuclear. Mollie Johnson may have more detailed information with respect to that question.

Mollie.

[Mollie Johnson, Assistant Deputy Minister, Low Carbon Energy Sector, Department of Natural Resources]

Thank you.

I would say that safety and security are, of course, among our top priorities when we're considering nuclear.

We can check and confirm on the drone issue specifically and on the reporting available and get back to you.

[Larry Maguire, Conservative, Brandon—Souris, MB]

Thank you. I would appreciate that.

I'm confident that the department is aware of the funding of $10.3 million for the development of Canadian critical mineral value chains. Which specific critical minerals are the focus of the developing value chains that my colleague from the Liberals was just asking the minister about?

[John Hannaford]

Thank you very much for the question.

As the minister said, the development of our critical minerals is of extraordinary importance not only for our domestic economy but also due to the broader geopolitical dynamics that exist right now with respect to this area and resource development. We've identified 31 critical minerals as part of our exercise in defining our focus with respect to this area. I would say though that there are different kinds of considerations with respect to different sorts of minerals.

As the minister said, on the one hand we will be looking at a certain set of minerals with respect to, say, batteries, for which our domestic supply chain is of critical importance to us not only, again, economically and geopolitically but also in terms of developing low-emission vehicles. There is a second set, which overlaps to some degree and which is of particular interest to international supply chains. As I said, we have an overall envelope of 31.

[Larry Maguire, Conservative, Brandon—Souris, MB]

Thank you, Mr. Hannaford.

In the natural resources committee's report on critical minerals, there was a recommendation that identified the intermediate processing industry as the weakest link in Canada's critical mineral value chain. Will any of these funds address the issue of the shortfall?

[John Hannaford]

At this stage our focus has been on creating the centre of excellence and doing some research and development with respect to some areas of particular importance in the development of critical minerals.

As the minister said, however, there is a real recognition that there are a series of stages that are of critical importance in the development of critical minerals. Right now processing is an area on which there is a concentration geopolitically, which is of significance, and that is something we are mindful of as we develop our strategy.

[Larry Maguire, Conservative, Brandon—Souris, MB]

These funds will help then.

It's recommended that the government work to develop a strategic vision for developing Canada's critical minerals by assessing the benefits of establishing an office of critical minerals within the Government of Canada, made up of multidisciplinary experts who would work on developing critical minerals supply and value chains, according to the report.

[The Chair, Liberal, John Aldag]

I'm sorry, Mr. Maguire. I hate to interrupt you. You still have half a minute here, but a new set of bells have just gone. Once bells start, we do require unanimous consent to continue.

We have the officials here and I need to ask the committee whether we want to continue and we are willing to, as we did last time, stay in the room, vote remotely and then get going.