Natural Resources Committee on June 13th, 2024

[Catherine Hickson]

The ERPP and SREPs have been very good.

[Julie Dabrusin, Liberal, Toronto—Danforth, ON]

Okay, perfect. Thanks.

One of my questions had come up the last time we had testimony It was about the need to build to anticipate electrical technology through, for example, building codes. One of the witnesses had testified that this would be helpful in promoting a cleaner grid.

Do any of you have any thoughts about that? I'll start with Greengate and do the circle again.

[Dan Balaban]

Sorry; could you repeat the question?

[Julie Dabrusin, Liberal, Toronto—Danforth, ON]

It's the idea of whether building codes and the like would encourage building new to anticipate that we'd be moving to electrical as opposed to building on older technologies.

[Dan Balaban]

Certainly things that we're seeing—like heat pumps, for example—are more efficient ways of heating, and they drive more electrical demand. That only makes sense if our electricity comes from clean sources, but things like that certainly drive more demand for renewables.

[Julie Dabrusin, Liberal, Toronto—Danforth, ON]

Do any of the others, if we go through again to Capital Power and Geothermal Canada, have any thoughts about building codes and building new buildings with the anticipation of moving to electrical power?

[May Wong]

Yes, I would second the comment from Greengate. It's helpful to have more certainty in understanding the need for power going forward and the way we can then plan to provide solutions that are affordable and reliable while also looking for ways to get clean power. That alone would not be sufficient.

[Julie Dabrusin, Liberal, Toronto—Danforth, ON]

I'm just adding it as one of the things that came up the last time we had testimony.

Geothermal is my last answer on that.

[Catherine Hickson]

Geo-exchange systems actually use the produced heat and then store it in the subsurface. Basically, every Canadian home and business should be using geo-exchange, meaning shallow subsurface heat recovery and storage.

[Julie Dabrusin, Liberal, Toronto—Danforth, ON]

I love that you mentioned it, because the University of Toronto just moved to a large geo-exchange system that's a district energy system. It actually helps to support the city of Toronto as well. I'm always glad to cheer that on.

I think that brings me to the end of my time, though.

[The Chair, Liberal, George Chahal]

Thank you, Ms. Dabrusin.

We'll now go to Monsieur Simard for two and a half minutes.

[Mario Simard, Bloc, Jonquière, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

I am not very familiar with the realities of the electricity generators in the rest of Canada, but I'm very familiar with the situation in Quebec. In Quebec, we tabled a bill amending various laws to allow self‑producers—and not Hydro‑Québec—to undertake clean energy projects with businesses. I wanted to mention it because I know a number of businesses are looking for sources of clean energy.

I'd like to hear from both of you, Mr. Balaban and Capital Power, about whether you've been contacted by any energy‑intensive businesses to develop clean energy projects specifically.

[Dan Balaban]

In the case of my company, we've had projects that we developed enter into long-term agreements with Amazon and Microsoft. Those players are in the Alberta market.

Yes, there seem to be a number of companies all over the world that are making very strong renewable commitments and have come to Canada, and Alberta specifically, to source that type of power. They come to Alberta because it's the only deregulated power market in the country and the only market where those sorts of bilateral arrangements are currently possible.

[Mario Simard, Bloc, Jonquière, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Balaban.

Can Capital Power answer that question as well, please?

[May Wong]

Yes, we have large C and I customers, commercial and industrial customers, who have an interest in looking for ways to have clean energy. We have virtual PPA customers for renewable projects. We also have customers looking for energy for new needs, like data centres and other industrial processes.

[Mario Simard, Bloc, Jonquière, QC]

Thank you.

[The Chair, Liberal, George Chahal]

Thank you.

We'll now go to Mr. Angus for two and a half minutes.

[Charlie Angus, NDP, Timmins—James Bay, ON]

Thank you.

Mr. Balaban, I've spoken with a lot of people over the years on the clean energy file, and I've been told many times that there was no jurisdiction as ready to kick off the clean energy revolution as Alberta was, given the enormous potential for solar and wind, and also the expertise. Would you agree?

[Dan Balaban]

I agree. I think we've seen that over the last number of years. Alberta has been the leading province in the country for renewables growth.

[Charlie Angus, NDP, Timmins—James Bay, ON]

Thank you for that.

You talked about political polarization and the damage it's doing. I certainly see that from the moratorium. I've talked again to businesses, which said they're not going to go somewhere where they don't know if there is a climate that would support it.

I look at California, which went from 770 megawatts of clean energy in 2019 to over 10,379 megawatts in five years. Texas is even more impressive. I don't know if I'm stepping over the line here, but I'd say Texas has even more right-wing politicians than the UCP, yet on any given day, Texas can generate with clean energy over half the power that is produced all across Canada.

Would you say Alberta is losing out from these battles?

Given what we're seeing in jurisdictions like California and Texas, it's political will that gets us to those enormous amounts of clean energy. If we had the political will, could Alberta and the west compete with competitors like California and Texas?

[Dan Balaban]

Absolutely, and up until recently, we were competing. Alberta, as I said, was one of the leading jurisdictions in North America for renewables investment. We have a great resource. We have a market that was working to attract investment. Corporate buyers were coming in to source energy.

Unfortunately, the moratorium has introduced a lot of uncertainty, and folks are now waiting for that to unfold, but in fairness, I think we need—

[Charlie Angus, NDP, Timmins—James Bay, ON]

I have to end here because I'm running out of time, but could I ask you one more thing?

There is one thing I would ask your opinion on. From my time in Alberta, I have found that we have enormously skilled workers. The union workers I've spoken to in IBEW, the building trades and the carpenters' unions have all spoken about their willingness to participate. If we can get this ideological hex off clean energy in Alberta, are there going to be well-paid jobs and sustainable jobs from the projects you're supporting?

[Dan Balaban]

Yes. A lot of construction jobs could be created with a massive build-out of renewables, but we need all forms of energy—oil and gas and renewables.

[The Chair, Liberal, George Chahal]

Thank you, Mr. Balaban.

Thank you to all of our witnesses for joining us today and providing your testimony.

As a reminder, if you would like to provide an additional brief to the committee, please send it over to our committee clerk.

Thank you so much. Have a great day.

I believe it's the will of the committee to adjourn.

[Julie Dabrusin, Liberal, Toronto—Danforth, ON]

Yes.