Natural Resources Committee on Sept. 18th, 2024

[The Chair, Liberal, George Chahal]

Thank you for your point of order, Mr. Angus.

Colleagues, Mr. Angus has asked that we release the witnesses. Is everybody fine with releasing the witnesses?

I don't see any objections to that. I would ask—

[Jeremy Patzer, Conservative, Cypress Hills—Grasslands, SK]

Chair, we haven't even finished the first hour of the meeting yet, so I would say to maybe just hang on a little bit longer.

[The Chair, Liberal, George Chahal]

Okay. I think there's an appetite to end this fairly soon; I'm not sure. I have quite a long speaking order. I'll ask colleagues how you want to proceed. Should we wait a little longer before releasing the witnesses?

Witnesses, can you stay a little bit longer? Can you give me a thumbs-up if you can?

Okay, we'll provide you an update as soon as we can. If it seems like we are continuing, then we will release you at that time. If not, be patient and think about whether you would like to provide a brief to the committee. You can provide a brief as well.

Thank you.

Thank you, Mr. Angus.

We'll go back to Mrs. Stubbs.

[Shannon Stubbs, Conservative, Lakeland, AB]

I believe that the witnesses who are here today have already explained why this is the most crucial issue, and what I am trying to reinforce is the point that it's this government that needs to be held to account. These ministers need to be held accountable, because they've been the government and the decision-makers for the last nine years.

What has happened is that investors, entrepreneurs and businesses, because of this government.... They want to invest in Canada. They want to build infrastructure. They want to create powerful paycheques for all people in all communities. They want to pay their taxes, their royalties and their revenue to all three levels of government from their responsible development of energy and other natural resources. They must be able to develop it. They must be able to export it. The loss of hundreds of thousands of oil and gas workers' jobs.... By the way, 90% of oil and gas businesses in Canada are businesses with 100 employees and fewer. Those are Canadian homegrown energy businesses.

[The Chair, Liberal, George Chahal]

Yes, go ahead, Ms. Dabrusin, on a point of order.

[Julie Dabrusin, Liberal, Toronto—Danforth, ON]

Perhaps, just as a friendly suggestion, because I heard they're not ready to release the witnesses, maybe Mrs. Stubbs would hold the debate on her motion until after we've had a chance to hear from the witnesses. Then we could go back to her motion.

[The Chair, Liberal, George Chahal]

Thank you, Ms. Dabrusin, for the point of order and that suggestion.

Mrs. Stubbs, you do have the floor. Ms. Dabrusin has suggested that we have an opportunity to question the witnesses and then release them, and then you could continue on with your debate on your motion. You do have the floor, so I want to give you the opportunity. If we can do that, we can do that and come back after a full round of questioning with the witnesses, but if you would like to proceed, I'll let you comment on that.

[Shannon Stubbs, Conservative, Lakeland, AB]

Thank you for the feedback. For the people of Canada, I'll proceed.

The truth is that's baloney. It's baloney because there are witnesses here today, like the first guy and the second guy, who've been saying the same thing for nine years, and this government hasn't listened. They don't care, because the truth is that this Prime Minister was.... It wasn't a gaffe. It was true when he said that he wanted to shut down Canadian energy and keep it in the ground. That's why he's in such a mess.

[Charlie Angus, NDP, Timmins—James Bay, ON]

I have a point of order.

[Shannon Stubbs, Conservative, Lakeland, AB]

That's why nothing adds up.

[The Chair, Liberal, George Chahal]

Mrs. Stubbs, I'll ask you to pause for a second. We have a point of order from Mr. Angus.

[Charlie Angus, NDP, Timmins—James Bay, ON]

One of the things about respect for witnesses.... I often hear witnesses with whom I strongly disagree, but the respect of the committee.... To call them guy one and guy two, to me, is complete disrespect. It's Dr. Kent Fellows, assistant professor, University of Calgary; Dwight Newman, professor of law, University of Saskatchewan; and our third witness Marc Lee, senior economist.

Again, I implore my colleague. She can carry on for as long as she wants, but we could let these three respected economists go and maybe bring them back at a time when we can get the insights they so rightly should be sharing with us for this important study.

[The Chair, Liberal, George Chahal]

Thank you, Mr. Angus, for that.

Once again, folks, I know the witnesses have acknowledged they could stay a bit longer. After Mrs. Stubbs is done, there are a number of people on the speaking list. I'm not sure how much time it will take. The suggestion from Mr. Angus is that we release the witnesses because we don't know how long this is going to take. I know the witnesses say they could stay a bit longer.

If you're open to staying right until the end, that's up to you. We're happy to keep you here.

[Shannon Stubbs, Conservative, Lakeland, AB]

Chair, they have already answered that.

[The Chair, Liberal, George Chahal]

Yes. However, we have a number of people in the speaking order.

[Shannon Stubbs, Conservative, Lakeland, AB]

Actually listen to the witnesses. They've already answered it.

[The Chair, Liberal, George Chahal]

Just to confirm, you're good to stay until—

[Shannon Stubbs, Conservative, Lakeland, AB]

This is exposing my exact point. None of you are interested in listening to them, anyway.

[The Chair, Liberal, George Chahal]

Witnesses, again, are you good to stay until the end? I'm looking at the screen.

They're fine. It seems as if they are fine to stay. We want to provide that courtesy to them.

Thank you.

Go ahead, Mrs. Stubbs.

[Shannon Stubbs, Conservative, Lakeland, AB]

Thank you.

Thank you, Charlie, for the opportunity to clarify. I appreciate it because, make no mistake, I deeply respect every single one of them—just to be clear. I apologize if any of them took offence for the way I referred to them.

What is obvious is this: Experts here have laid plain that it is government uncertainty, government interference and government's changing the goalposts that make it so the private sector can't build projects. It stops them with gatekeepers, changing goalposts, uncertainty and new conditions. Over these entire nine years, this government has deliberately, in every way.... To be clear, this is a travesty, and it is heartbreaking. It is a real human issue because it has hurt people and communities over nine years. It is government interference and uncertainty. This is deliberate. It is obvious this has been deliberate for nine years. Like, the jig's up here. I think it's obvious. It ought to be obvious.

The truth is that these witnesses ought to be listened to. They don't just speak here. They are available. They have been out there. They are experts. They've been doing this work. They've been offering this advice. They've been making these statements for nine years. The truth is that the current Prime Minister and these ministers don't care. That's actually the truth. They don't want to hear. That's why they're suddenly pretending they now want to hear from these witnesses, who are speaking the truth. That's why they're pretending the only place they can hear from them is in this committee, where we pretend that five minutes allows them sufficient time to make the complex and crucial points they need to make.

This anti-energy, anti-private sector, anti-resource development and, frankly, anti-Canada government, which has been in place for nine years, is the problem. These experts just pointed that out and they've been saying it. The truth is that the official opposition, Canada's Conservatives, have also been saying it non-stop for 10 years. I have no doubt that all the witnesses here, even if they have different perspectives, have already said how important this issue is.

Thanks for that.

After nine years, this is the truth. The current government has betrayed and sold out Canadians.

[Jean-Denis Garon, Bloc, Mirabel, QC]

I have a point of order, Mr. Chair.

[The Chair, Liberal, George Chahal]

Mrs. Stubbs, we have a point of order from Mr. Garon.

[Jean-Denis Garon, Bloc, Mirabel, QC]

I am not a member of this committee, and I hold my colleague in great esteem, as she knows. However, I must say, with all due respect to her, that we were debating a motion to invite the ministers to testify. So I would like to know when our colleague will get back on track and talk about this motion. It seems to me that the Standing Orders require that the comments be relevant and related to the motion being discussed. However, it seems to me that my colleague is straying a little from the subject. Could she tell us when she intends to discuss her own motion?

[The Chair, Liberal, George Chahal]

Thank you, Mr. Garon, for the point of order.

Mrs. Stubbs, I think he wants to make sure we're on the substance of the motion. If you could, please make sure that, as you present your motion, you speak to the substance of it as well, as you proceed.

Thank you.

Thank you, Mr. Garon.

[Shannon Stubbs, Conservative, Lakeland, AB]

Thank you, Chair.

Of course, here's the twilight world we're in, because I did read the motion at the beginning. We all heard it. It's in writing. It is:

That the committee invite the Minister of Natural Resources and the Minister of Environment and Climate Change to appear before the committee, separately, for no less than 2 hours each, within 14 days of the adoption of this motion, in relation to their priorities for the return of Parliament and their mandates.

That is what I said a few minutes ago. I hope that helps.

The reason I am making this argument and the reason it is directly linked to the topic that we are dealing with today and that all of these experts are trying to talk about.... That's why I'm making this argument. That's why it's completely relevant. That's why it's totally connected. That's why we're talking about this. Is that good? Okay. Is that clear? Okay, thanks.

I hear a colleague snickering. I want to explain why this matters so much.