Natural Resources Committee on Sept. 23rd, 2024

[The Chair, Liberal, George Chahal]

I call this meeting to order.

Welcome to meeting number 105 of the House of Commons Standing Committee on Natural Resources.

Pursuant to Standing Order 108(2) and the motion adopted by the committee on November 29, 2022, the committee is resuming its study of Canada's electricity grid and network.

Today's meeting is taking place in a hybrid format. All witnesses have completed the required connection tests in advance of the meeting, except for Mr. Sylvestre.

I would like to remind participants of the following points:

Please wait until I recognize you by name before speaking. All comments should be address through the chair.

Members, please raise your hand if you wish to speak, whether participating in person or via Zoom. The clerk and I will manage the speaking order as best we can.

Now I would like to welcome our witnesses, who are appearing via video conference.

With us today from the Canadian Labour Congress, we have Alex Callahan, national director, health and safety environment. From Electricity Human Resources Canada, we have Mark Chapeskie, vice-president of programs; and from Indigenous Clean Energy, we have James Jenkins, executive director.

Up to five minutes will be given for opening remarks, after which we will proceed with rounds of questions.

I use these cards. A yellow card means a 30-second warning; red means that your time is up. I will try not to cut you off mid-sentence so that you can finish your thought.

I will now begin with five minutes of opening remarks from Alex Callahan, national director of the Canadian Labour Congress.

You have the floor, sir.

[Alex Callahan, National Director, Health Safety and Environment, Canadian Labour Congress]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

My name is Alex Callahan. I'm the national director of health, safety and environment at the Canadian Labour Congress.

The CLC represents more than three million workers. Workers with affiliated unions work in virtually every sector of the economy, in all occupations and in all parts of Canada.

CLC affiliates also represent workers throughout the electricity system in every province and territory. We appreciate the importance of this study being conducted by the Standing Committee on Natural Resources and we look forward to responding to any questions. I appreciate the invitation to speak to you today.

The mandate of the committee is to study Canada's electricity grid and network, to understand interprovincial tie-ins and gaps, opportunities, and the challenges to improve electrical production and distribution across the country.

This means that the committee must consider workers. While the role of workers in improving the grid is obvious, because they build, maintain, and operate generation, transmission, and distribution assets, workers more broadly are counting on electrification to power new industries, decarbonize existing industries, and reliably power already electrified industries.

Your work will be essential to building a strong economy of the future and creating a sustainable economy. Please consider that union density in the sector has made electricity jobs good and safe across the country.

Additionally, in June 2024, the Canadian Sustainable Jobs Act was given royal assent, committing Canada to creating economic growth and sustainable jobs. These jobs are part of the net-zero trajectory, and by and large are good, safe and well-paid unionized jobs. We always need to be lifting those standards.

Electrifying jobs across the country is an important part of industrial decarbonization, which is a key way to make already good jobs in emissions-intensive sectors into sustainable jobs.

Where are we now? There is a general consensus amongst demand forecasters that there's going to be roughly a doubling of generation to meet demand between now and 2050. Meeting this demand will require significant capital investments in new and refurbished generation, transmission and distribution.

It also means everything from building new generating stations, transmission lines and substations to installing transformers and smart meters and to replacing wooden utility poles with cement and steel to withstand extreme weather. Investments in this capital infrastructure will require significant investments in skilled labour to build, operate and maintain a good state of repair across the grid.

However, despite this acknowledged and existing need, Canada is facing a shortage of electricians. I don't have StatsCan data on related national occupation classifications, or NOCs, but I think it is fair to say that in the absence of information to the contrary, it's probably similar.

In this context, we also note that many other countries have announced, or are pursuing, significant electrification strategies. The IEA lists more than 244 in-force electrification strategies around the globe. This means there will be an increased demand for workers around the world. This also means there is a challenge in finding yourself in a seller's market.

We're facing a shortage, and we cannot assume that skills gaps can be resolved through immigration. This means that you need to be recommending significant investment in training, supporting strong paycheques and investing in education, health care, and public services so that we can attract and retain skilled workers.

We're asking for a sectoral workforce strategy to ensure that we can meet electrification goals and deliver electricity reliably and affordably. That means you should have four key priorities that underpin a workforce strategy: social dialogue; the principles of decent work; accredited training delivered by not-for-profits, such as union training centres; and a commitment to transitioning, with no involuntary layoffs.

What does that mean?

Social dialogue means getting employers and governments to the table with workers.

A commitment to decent work means fair pay, job security, social dialogue and a strong social safety net.

Training means accredited training so that public dollars go into training and not to a middleman.

Finally, a low-carbon grid means a changing generation mix, which means committing to a transition and no involuntary layoffs for the workers who keep the lights on today.

Canada's unions are also asking you to recommend that the government take steps to ensure domestic production of transformers and smart transformers, steel that goes into transmission towers, cement for dams and various products in the supply chain.

A strong domestic manufacturing sector that produces goods will be essential to grid expansion and to the transformation that's essential to ensuring Canada's able to weather supply chain disruptions or spikes in global demand for particular goods related to electrification. Recall my comment earlier about the global demand for electrification.

In respect of these supply chains and the work that needs to be done, Canada's unions believe that the committee should recommend the federal government use a combination of federal procurement and investment tax credits with labour standards. The committee should recommend considering production tax credits with accompanying labour standards to build and ensure viability within the sector while meeting job quality standards in the Sustainable Jobs Act's definition of sustainable jobs.

Finally, in addition to creating a workforce plan—credibly built, with labour at the table—the committee should recommend a focus on affordability and reliability. Workers across the sector are ratepayers. Support for electrification will be contingent on affordable and reliable electricity.

As you're doing all of this work, the committee should recommend the application of labour conditions to projects that receive public funding.

Examples could include mirroring the conditions on the clean economy ITCs for things like prevailing wages and apprenticeship ratios, etc.

Thank you. I look forward to your questions.

[The Chair, Liberal, George Chahal]

Thank you, Mr. Callahan, for your opening remarks.

Before going to the next speaker, I will remind all of our witnesses to speak a little bit slower for interpretation. It's a reminder that I normally put at the beginning of the meeting. It's just so the interpreters can stay caught up to the interpretation and not fall behind, because it is a great job that they do.

Now we'll go to Indigenous Clean Energy.

Mr. Jenkins, you have five minutes.

[James Jenkins, Executive Director, Indigenous Clean Energy]

Thank you very much, Chair.

Thank you to the committee for the opportunity to speak on this topic.

As mentioned, I'm the executive director of Indigenous Clean Energy. We represent over 1,000 program alumni, mentors and team members who are clean-energy leaders and professionals in indigenous communities and businesses. We've been providing capacity building and training programs over the past eight years. We've been expanding to now include youth programs, efficiency, transportation and an energy and climate team with a national and global focus.

We've been a central partner of Natural Resources Canada's indigenous off-diesel initiative. Our educational and global programs began as initiatives under the clean energy for rural and remote communities program. We've had other successful partnerships, including zero-emission vehicle programs in the science and technology internship program, which we deliver to indigenous youth.

One topic I want to touch on is that indigenous communities over the past 10 years have become major asset holders in clean energy in Canada. Today almost 20% of the total generation infrastructure in Canada has some economic participation from indigenous communities and businesses. We've seen a large shift since the year 2000, when almost all medium to large indigenous clean-energy projects were hydroelectric. Today, only 12% of those are hydroelectric, and we see a mix across renewables. It varies by province. For example, in Ontario it's fairly even between solar, wind and hydro, with some bioenergy and storage emerging. In other provinces, indigenous participation is prominent in dominant clean-energy industries.

As we see the demand for energy increase—a need to double or, by some estimates, triple energy generation over the next 15 years—we'll see the number of projects that have indigenous participation increase as well. This really speaks to a need for continuing to invest in the capacity-building programs like those under Natural Resources Canada.

We're also seeing that the work in rural and remote communities has the potential to create a critical knowledge exchange and the skilled labour that will be needed in the modernization of the grid at large. Readiness is an issue, and we've seen some success through capacity-building programs, some of which we've delivered with Natural Resources Canada.

As we've supported remote grids, the off-diesel initiative and similar programs, there is an opportunity to learn from these microgrids and to apply that to the larger modernization that's needed. As we race to attract technology investment from across the world, modernization of the grid will become a larger and larger issue, as we've seen in other jurisdictions, like China.

Some key challenges are that the regulatory and utility processes haven't changed much since the 1950s, and those remote communities are facing inflexibility of rate structures and other factors that are placing greater risk and demands on those local initiatives.

We are calling upon federal investment in crosscutting programs, including CERRC, IODI and the strategic partnerships initiative under Indigenous Services to evolve and respond to these needs.

We also see some challenges in grid penetration by renewables within many of these projects, with diesel continuing to be the generation technology of choice. There is an opportunity to take what we've learned from microgrids and off-grid projects and apply them to the need for smart grid technology as we look at modernization and investment for the grid.

In addition, the indigenous population is the fastest-growing youth population in Canada, and as we see more indigenous people upskilling and becoming part of the clean-energy labour pool, we could be well positioned to unlock a competitive advantage in the energy transition, both domestically and globally.

Finally, in terms of the larger grid expansion, indigenous nations are increasingly becoming leaders. There are supply chain opportunities in places like the Ring of Fire, where first nations are in a position to lead control centres, transfer stations and other key infrastructure points. We see the Wataynikaneyap Power project in northern Ontario, with 17 remote communities leading that transmission project, and Hydro One announcing 50% equity in all transmission lines.

Other jurisdictions, such as Quebec and many parts of Canada, are going along on the same policy trajectory. We will continue to see indigenous leadership in the transmission infrastructure at large.

Thanks very much.

[The Chair, Liberal, George Chahal]

Thank you for your opening remarks.

We will now go to Mark Chapeskie from Electricity Human Resources Canada. You have five minutes.

[Mark Chapeskie, Vice President of Programs, Electricity Human Resources Canada]

Thank you, Mr. Chair and members of the Standing Committee on Natural Resources, for the opportunity to speak with you today about a critical aspect of our nation's energy future: the resilience of our electricity grid.

As we navigate the complexities of reliability, affordability, adverse weather impacts, technological advancements and increased electrification, it's imperative that we recognize the pivotal role of the workforce in maintaining and enhancing grid resiliency.

Our vision at EHRC is to build the world's leading electricity workforce, one that will power our nation's grid, ensure reliability and support a clean economy for future generations. We deliver critical business intelligence to inform labour market decision-making and lead the industry in creating and sustaining a safe, skilled and inclusive workforce.

The electricity sector is undergoing a significant transformation. Over the past five years, we've seen a 12% increase in total employment within the sector—almost twice that of the broader Canadian economy at 7%—to a workforce of 110,000 strong. However, EHRC's labour market modelling suggests that by 2028, in a net-zero scenario, we're looking at 28,000 total new openings. Nearly half of the sector's core occupations are expected to face labour shortages: engineering, the skilled trades and, especially, information and communication technology.

To address these challenges, we must focus on three key areas: attracting and retaining talent, upskilling and re-skilling our workforce and fostering a culture of inclusion.

First, we need targeted recruitment campaigns to draw talent into the sector. Offering competitive compensation and benefits packages will help retain the skilled workers we already have, and attraction starts early. EHRC is currently engaging middle school youth with projects like our series of great Canadian electricity maps that are 8 metres by 11 metres in size. They chart the generation facilities, transmission infrastructure, indigenous treaty territories and language groups, as well as the history of electricity in Canada.

The map has over 70 QR codes that trigger videos on a standard smart phone of people working in the industry, like Cherise, the boilermaker at Ontario Power Generation's Darlington nuclear facility, who's talking about her career in the industry and why it's important to her—and fun. It comes with six units for teachers, aligning with middle school curricula in science, social studies and geography. By engaging with more young people, we can ensure that our workforce remains robust and capable of meeting the demands of a rapidly evolving industry: 8,100 students walked across that map last year.

Second, expanding training programs and upskilling and re-skilling are crucial. Technological advancements necessitate updated and new training program delivery. Developing partnerships between industry and educational institutions and expanding those partnerships to create such programs is vital.

It's clear that as technology is changing, our training programs need to become more agile to respond to this need. While baseline skills like electricity fundamentals are absolutely still necessary and critical, established partnerships between industry and education on work-integrated learning and research and development will be critical to respond to emergent skills needs.

Furthermore, creating the conditions for continuous professional development opportunities will ensure that our workers have the necessary skills to adapt to technological changes over time. This includes paid leave to pursue professional development and incentives for employers to either share costs or pay in full for employee upskilling. This approach will not only enhance workforce capabilities but also boost employee confidence and job satisfaction over the long term.

Third, fostering diversity and inclusion is a strategic imperative. The face of the Canadian workforce has changed, but we have seen only incremental improvements in representation in our industry. Enhancing workforce diversity is essential for fostering innovation and addressing labour shortages. There's plenty of research demonstrating this. We must implement strategies to attract and retain more under-represented groups, including women, indigenous peoples, Black and racialized people, people with disabilities and newcomers to Canada. A diverse workforce brings a variety of perspectives and ideas, driving both innovation and efficiency.

To achieve these goals, we need strategic workforce initiatives. Collaborating with industry stakeholders, government and educational institutions will align workforce development with sector needs. Establishing mentorship and apprenticeship programs will facilitate knowledge transfer and skills development. These partnerships will create a supportive ecosystem that nurtures talent and prepares our workforce for the future.

In conclusion, the workforce is a cornerstone of the electricity sector's ability to maintain and enhance grid resiliency. By addressing labour market challenges through strategic initiatives, we can ensure that the sector meets its reliability, affordability and decarbonization objectives. Focusing on attracting, retaining and developing a skilled and diverse workforce will enable Canada to build a resilient electricity grid capable of supporting a sustainable future.

Thank you for your time today.

I look forward to further discussion of the importance of the workforce to powering Canadian homes, businesses and other critical infrastructure.

[The Chair, Liberal, George Chahal]

Thank you for your opening remarks, Mr. Chapeskie.

We'll now proceed to our first round of questions, beginning with Mrs. Stubbs from the CPC.

Mrs. Stubbs, the floor is yours for six minutes.

[Shannon Stubbs, Conservative, Lakeland, AB]

Thank you, Chair.

Just before we proceed with our questioning and the rest of this meeting, I would like to move that we quickly resume debate on the motion I put forward in committee on September 18 regarding inviting the ministers to committee.

I urge all committee members to vote to support this motion so that all Canadians can hear from the ministers about these crucial issues that underline our economic development and our collective prosperity in the future as Canadians.

My motion is as follows:

That the committee invite the Minister of Natural Resources and the Minister of Environment and Climate Change to appear before the committee, separately, for no less than two hours each, within 15 days of the adoption of this motion, in relation to their priorities for the return of Parliament and their mandates.

Thanks, Chair.

[The Chair, Liberal, George Chahal]

Colleagues, because Mrs. Stubbs is resuming debate on a previous motion and it's a dilatory motion, we do have to proceed to a vote. We can't have debate to allow it to....

Give me one moment.

If committee passes resuming debate on the motion that she's presented, as it's a motion from a previous day, we can resume debate on this.

We will first go a vote, then, so that we can resume debate on the motion.

One moment.

Mrs. Stubbs, if there's unanimous consent, because it is resuming debate on a previous motion, we can proceed with the motion being placed and go from there.

The clerk has just told me that we should vote right away, because it is a dilatory....

I do have folks on the list.

[Charlie Angus, NDP, Timmins—James Bay, ON]

I'm just seeking clarification on this, Chair.

[The Chair, Liberal, George Chahal]

Clerk, it seems they're unclear, so go ahead.

[The Clerk of the Committee, Mr. Alexandre Vassiliev]

MP Stubbs moved her motion last Wednesday. The debate on the motion was adjourned. Therefore, she needs to move to resume debate on the motion. It's a dilatory motion. We'll go into a vote. If the committee agrees to resume debate on the motion, then debate will resume. If not, we'll go back to the business of the day.

[Julie Dabrusin, Liberal, Toronto—Danforth, ON]

On a point of clarification, if we do this, can that be adjourned to debate later? I'm just confused as to what we're voting on.

[A voice]

[Inaudible—Editor]

[Julie Dabrusin, Liberal, Toronto—Danforth, ON]

All right. I think I understand.

Thank you.

[Charlie Angus, NDP, Timmins—James Bay, ON]

That's my question. I'm not trying to interrupt. We do have two hours. I don't mind debating, but I also don't want to lose our witnesses again. I'm inclined not to vote, but I don't want to say that I'm not voting to kill the motion. I want to hear our witnesses.

Is it possible that we agree to debate it in the second hour?

[Jeremy Patzer, Conservative, Cypress Hills—Grasslands, SK]

Mr. Chair—

[The Chair, Liberal, George Chahal]

Go ahead.

[Jeremy Patzer, Conservative, Cypress Hills—Grasslands, SK]

Really briefly, we would like to vote on the motion and get it done right now so that we can get back to the witnesses. We just want to get on with it.

If it's the will of the committee to vote on the motion right now, we can get it done.

[The Chair, Liberal, George Chahal]

I think everybody is clear now on what's happening here. I'll ask if we have unanimous consent to allow the motion to proceed. If so, and there's no disagreement, we can go to a vote on the motion—or the motion can be amended or changed by the will of the committee, which I'll leave up to committee members.

Do we have unanimous consent to have this motion placed on the floor?

[Some hon. members]

No.

[The Chair, Liberal, George Chahal]

If we don't have unanimous consent, we'll have to go to a roll call vote.

[Charlie Angus, NDP, Timmins—James Bay, ON]

Can I ask for clarification?

We had to have unanimous consent on whether it could come back, and we didn't have unanimous consent. How can we go to a vote now? It's still on the table.

[The Chair, Liberal, George Chahal]

That's my bad.

As it was a dilatory motion, I did allow points of clarification. Normally, we should go right to a vote, but it was unclear for members what was going on.

We will go right to a vote. I should not have brought that forward on allowing the motion to resume debate. Once the committee says, “Yes”, if there's a vote among committee members to allow debate, we'll go to debate the motion at hand.

Is that clear for everyone? Do you know what you're voting on?

I'm going to go to a point of order by Mr. Simard.

[Mario Simard, Bloc, Jonquière, QC]

Let's be clear. At first you said that if we wanted to resume debate on the motion, we needed unanimous consent. My friend Ms. Dabrusin said she wasn't going to consent to it. So we're not resuming debate. We're not voting on whether or not to resume debate on the motion because we didn't have unanimous consent.

It seems to me that's the end of it.