Evidence of meeting #105 for Natural Resources in the 44th Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was workforce.

A video is available from Parliament.

On the agenda

MPs speaking

Also speaking

Alex Callahan  National Director, Health Safety and Environment, Canadian Labour Congress
James Jenkins  Executive Director, Indigenous Clean Energy
Mark Chapeskie  Vice President of Programs, Electricity Human Resources Canada
Clerk of the Committee  Mr. Alexandre Vassiliev

11:50 a.m.

National Director, Health Safety and Environment, Canadian Labour Congress

Alex Callahan

Thank you very much. I will thank the interpreters, because I'm guessing the chair was referring to me about speaking too quickly.

Again, I know that Quebec has a fundamentally different arrangement, especially in the construction sector, in terms of its unionization. In skills development, fundamentally these things have to be tripartite projects for which you have employers, workers and governments at the table determining the outcomes.

I'm not going to engage much more than that, because I'm not an expert in Quebec's competencies development boards, but that's certainly something that I think would be.... It's unfortunate that our colleague from CUPE wasn't able to to participate this morning, because I know he has some expertise, as does the FTQ.

Mario Simard Bloc Jonquière, QC

Thank you.

I would point out that this tripartite table exists in Quebec. It’s called the Commission des partenaires du marché du travail, and it's been there for many years.

I have a question for all the witnesses. It's related to the study I mentioned to everyone. If we want to double electricity production by 2050, we have to get through the energy transition. To achieve that, according to most experts on the transition issue, we need to put a price on carbon. So I'd like to hear your thoughts on that.

Do you agree with carbon pricing?

I would ask that you keep your answer fairly short, please.

11:50 a.m.

Vice President of Programs, Electricity Human Resources Canada

Mark Chapeskie

I can start. I'm probably not the best qualified to respond as to whether a price on carbon is the appropriate mechanism, but what we are looking to do is something that we haven't done in a long time in Canada with regard to building out infrastructure. It's literally taken us 100 years to date, and so it is a big job and will require significant investment.

Mario Simard Bloc Jonquière, QC

What do you think, Mr. Callahan?

11:50 a.m.

National Director, Health Safety and Environment, Canadian Labour Congress

Alex Callahan

I think our focus needs to be on ensuring that we meet our Paris targets, that we have an industrial strategy to make sure that our economy is producing the goods and electrifying at the rate we need to meet the targets, and that we have a regulatory package that supports meeting our targets.

Mario Simard Bloc Jonquière, QC

Finally, I'd like to hear from Mr. Jenkins.

11:50 a.m.

Executive Director, Indigenous Clean Energy

James Jenkins

In terms of bringing investment to Canada and ensuring that we're able to bring the talent, capital and everything else we need to have a successful energy transition, we need mechanisms like a price on carbon, and if not that, then certainly carrots that are going to accelerate the transition are very important.

Stability is also very important, so being able to signal to the global market that we can move forward on one mechanism, whether that's a carbon price or something else, is very important as well. In terms of having a carrot that's going to accelerate that transition, yes, we do need those mechanisms.

The Chair Liberal George Chahal

Thank you.

We now go to Mr. Angus for six minutes. Mr. Angus, the floor is yours.

Charlie Angus NDP Timmins—James Bay, ON

Thank you to all of our witnesses.

I start with you, Mr. Callahan, because you spoke of the investment tax credits.

We know that Minister Freeland announced investment tax credits in the fall of 2022, and then I heard a lot of talk coming up to the next budget. Have we actually seen any of these investment tax credits that can kick-start a clean economy?

11:55 a.m.

National Director, Health Safety and Environment, Canadian Labour Congress

Alex Callahan

My understanding is that they're still working their way through all the processes.

What's important about the tax credits are the labour conditions that have been attached to them. It is fairly new that we have wage standards. Basically, we have the equivalent of a prevailing wage standard that's attached to these tax credits, along with apprenticeship ratios.

There was an interesting report out of the Department of Energy in the Unites States. Obviously, the IRA, the Inflation Reduction Act, did a lot of work on prevailing wage, investment tax credits and things like that. The U.S. DOE has an employment and energy report, and basically the conclusion is that the ITCs in clean energy in the States are starting to pay dividends insofar as they're seeing unionization rates that are higher now in that sector than in the broader sector and that unionized firms—and this is perhaps not that surprising—are dealing with skills shortages better. As well, there's greater equity in the firms that have union contracts and are abiding by the labour standards that are attached to the ITCs, so we want to see these in place ASAP.

Charlie Angus NDP Timmins—James Bay, ON

The reason I ask is that it's a no-brainer. We see what the Biden administration did within a year with the ITCs. We saw billions of investments, thousands of new jobs created, and good union jobs, yet this government is still working through the process two years after they were promised.

Now, if it were Suncor and TMX—boy, oh boy, they'd be going all out. I mean, they put $34 billion on the table and built a pipeline, yet investment tax credits to kick-start a clean-energy economy and pull back some of the investments that went to the States are nowhere to be seen.

In terms of the struggle that's before us, we've seen, just in the last six months, incredible transformations in battery technology and solar power in Texas and California: The investments are moving there in a big way. Is Canada facing being left behind, based on the fact that we are not serious about making the investments that our competitors are?

11:55 a.m.

National Director, Health Safety and Environment, Canadian Labour Congress

Alex Callahan

Yes, I think there is a risk that we are standing on the sidelines while other industrialized countries are jumping with both feet into building a clean-energy future, a broader net-zero future. It's the United States with the IRA. It's Europe with the European Green Deal.

Yes, you're absolutely right, Mr. Angus. We're seeing investments go other places, and Canada needs its place there. We need to be part of those supply chains. We need to be building the kinds of things that are going to be part of a net-zero economy. We need to be decarbonizing existing good jobs in the areas of certain strengths that we have. I'm thinking, for example, of steelmaking. We have some of the best steelworkers in the entire world, and we can produce low-carbon steels. This committee is not only studying electricity; there needs to be a reliable low-carbon electricity supply so that we can decarbonize steelmaking.

To go back to where you began, though, I'll ask this: Are we dealing with this with the urgency that's needed? No. This is something that we've been calling for for a long time. Workers have been calling for it for a long time because we're seeing the impacts of climate change, and workers want to know what the future looks like. They want to know that there is a future in their work, that their communities have the kinds of good jobs that are going to keep them there in the long term. They want to know that there's a future for their kids. Having a job in a low-carbon sector with the protection of a union card in their pocket—that's how we start to build that security.

Charlie Angus NDP Timmins—James Bay, ON

I want to follow up on that because, when I meet with the IBEW workers in Edmonton and go to their training facilities, they're training their workers up, and they say that they're ready for the new economy and want to be part of it. Then they ask where the federal government is.

Here we are, how many years into this government's administration, with all kinds of promises at the international level, yet how do I go back to the IBEW and say that we're there for them when they're looking over the border and seeing huge projects coming on stream with good union jobs, good training and clean energy?

In Canada, we're still talking about it. How do we ensure that workers are going to actually be leaders in this new economy? They're ready for it.

11:55 a.m.

National Director, Health Safety and Environment, Canadian Labour Congress

Alex Callahan

Yes. I mean, I think this is a matter of the federal government coming to the table with money for real projects that are tangible, that are going to be there, and they're coming to them with labour conditions attached to them that say that this is going to create a good union job. It means that you have the kind of paycheque that you've been counting on your whole life or that you've been aspiring to. It's going to give you a pension that you can comfortably retire on. It's going to give you the benefits that mean that if your kid needs braces, you don't have to wonder where the mortgage payment is going to come from. It is about coming to the table with the chequebook.

Noon

Liberal

The Chair Liberal George Chahal

Thank you.

Now we will proceed to our second round of questions, and we'll start with Mr. Falk for five minutes.

Noon

Conservative

Ted Falk Conservative Provencher, MB

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Thank you to all of our witnesses for coming to the committee this morning. Your presentations have been informative.

Mr. Chapeskie, I'd like to start with you. You indicated the challenges of attracting and retaining people in your industry while recognizing that it's actually a very well-compensated industry. That has piqued my curiosity a little bit.

There are seven large, notable North American companies—Molson Coors, Ford Motor Company, John Deere, Lowe's, Harley-Davidson, Brown-Forman, and Tractor Supply Co.—that have abandoned DEI. As well, Google and Meta have said that they're significantly scaling back their DEI programs.

Can you tell me how DEI has affected the human resource aspect of the electricity industry in Canada?

Noon

Vice President of Programs, Electricity Human Resources Canada

Mark Chapeskie

I think the way I would respond is to say that our electricity industry today reflects, from a visual or just-representation perspective, Canadian society 30 years ago. It does not reflect Canadian society today. It doesn't reflect the diversity of our cities and it doesn't reflect the diversity of our country, whether we're talking about folks from other countries or about more women's participation. Just to put a finer point on it, women's participation in this industry is 27%. Five years ago, it was 26%. At that rate, we're looking at 120 years to gender parity for the sector.

I think we can all agree that gender parity across the economy has almost been achieved from a total representation perspective. We're almost at 50%. I think it's 51% men to 49% women. We're very, very close. This sector is lagging, so there's some work to be done on that particular aspect of it. There is plenty of research from organizations like the Diversity Institute out of Toronto and others. They have done a great deal of work on what it means to be innovative through different thinking and different mechanisms of thinking and by coming from different societal and social backgrounds.

I think that if we don't diversify our industry, we're actually being left behind from an innovation perspective.

Noon

Conservative

Ted Falk Conservative Provencher, MB

Just to follow up on that a bit, I'm speaking more of mandated diversity. Has that excluded potential good new hirees from actually obtaining employment in the industry?

Noon

Vice President of Programs, Electricity Human Resources Canada

Mark Chapeskie

I think that's a fair question. The way I have typically responded to that in the past is that this is not a sector in decline; this is a growth sector. We're not losing opportunities for existing workers; we're literally growing the industry. Over the past five years, the Canadian economy grew by 7%. This sector grew by 12%. That means we are creating whole new opportunities. The opportunity to diversify the industry is obviously there, and we need to capitalize on it.

Noon

Conservative

Ted Falk Conservative Provencher, MB

Okay. It's not as though you're turning away people who are interested in the industry because they don't fit into a box.

Noon

Vice President of Programs, Electricity Human Resources Canada

Mark Chapeskie

No. There would be no reason for that.

Noon

Conservative

Ted Falk Conservative Provencher, MB

It's just that you're providing space for anybody who's interested.

Noon

Vice President of Programs, Electricity Human Resources Canada

Mark Chapeskie

That's right.

I think it's also important to reference that if you're going to work in one of our technical occupations, such as the skilled trades, engineers, technicians, technologists, information and communication technology—I mentioned the skills block earlier—we can't afford to not have folks who have the competencies, skills and training to work in this industry. In the absence of somebody not fitting a diversity box, for the sake of argument, we have to hire who's available.

When we talk about diversity and inclusion in this industry, we actually talk about it much earlier. We need to be attracting folks in high school and in middle school because, again, that's the fabric of Canadian society, so it's important—

Noon

Conservative

Ted Falk Conservative Provencher, MB

What you're saying is that you're making space available rather than excluding people.

Noon

Vice President of Programs, Electricity Human Resources Canada

Mark Chapeskie

I think it's important that we make space available and that we retain those folks we have.