Evidence of meeting #108 for Natural Resources in the 44th Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was energy.
A video is available from Parliament.
Bloc
Vice President, The Transition Accelerator
I think we want to make sure that Canada's framework remains competitive, especially on the industrial side of things.
We don't necessarily have an organizational position on pricing, but for us, really, it's a matter of economic competitiveness and ensuring that we're aligned with other nations that we're competing with economically.
Senior Research Director, Canadian Climate Institute
Yes, carbon pricing is a powerful tool. Our research has shown that the large-emitter trading systems, the industrial carbon pricing systems in Canada, will disproportionately drive Canada's GHG reductions, and it leverages the power of markets to do so.
Is it the only tool we have in front of us? No, there are other ways to do it, and there are smart ways to implement them and combine them, but certainly we need to think about the economic impacts. Economic research has consistently shown carbon pricing can be a good way to do that.
Bloc
Mario Simard Bloc Jonquière, QC
Thank you.
I would like to ask the same question to our other two witnesses. I would ask them to provide a brief answer.
Director, Energy, Natural Resources and Environment, Macdonald-Laurier Institute
Yes, I support and Macdonald-Laurier Institute supports industrial carbon pricing as the most efficient mechanism by which to address climate change.
Associate Professor, Canada Research Chair in Urban Planning for Climate Change, University of Victoria, As an Individual
Carbon pricing is a very useful tool. However, whether or not we have carbon pricing, we will need a very wide mix of policies in order to get to where we're going, because one policy cannot do all things. We need to be very careful when we select the policy mix and mixes that we choose, and of course, they're going to be different depending on the province. Carbon pricing can absolutely align with facilitating that as one important part of the policy mix.
Liberal
The Chair Liberal George Chahal
Thank you.
I'm going to go to Mr. Schiefke for five minutes, and then Mr. Angus after that.
Go ahead, Mr. Schiefke.
Liberal
Peter Schiefke Liberal Vaudreuil—Soulanges, QC
Thank you very much, Chair. I appreciate the opportunity.
First, I'll start off by apologizing to the witness who was referred to as a propaganda tool by my Conservative colleague across the aisle. I don't think that's the kind of language we should be using in this committee, but it goes in line with what we've heard from many Conservative members, including the leader of the Conservative Party, using insults, using fear and talking about a nuclear winter in making the transition to a greener economy.
I guess I'll use my line of questioning to debunk some of those myths and those arguments put forward by my Conservative colleagues. I'll start off with this one, and this I will ask Dr. Exner-Pirot and Ms. Hoicka, as well as Mr. Dion and Mr. MacDougall.
If we make this transition to a cleaner electrical grid, to cleaner forms of energy, are we going to experience a nuclear winter? Are we going to run out of electricity? Is everything going to collapse?
I'll start off with you, Dr. Exner-Pirot.
Director, Energy, Natural Resources and Environment, Macdonald-Laurier Institute
It's all a matter of the trade-offs and the costs of the benefit. Perhaps it's possible to reach a 100% clean electricity grid, but it would be extremely expensive to do so, and you'd certainly have more intermittency and less reliability if you did so.
While we all want net zero by 2050, I think there are many cheaper ways to do it than the last couple of percentage points on what is already a very clean electricity grid. Focusing on getting to 100%, when 92% or 93% might allow us to have and maintain the reliability and the affordability and sustainably is what I object to.
Associate Professor, Canada Research Chair in Urban Planning for Climate Change, University of Victoria, As an Individual
Let's talk about affordability. My insurance costs have gone up to almost double, because of climate change. Let's talk about the costs of adaptation to climate change, including the costs to the grid. The year that I moved to Vancouver Island, there was a heat dome, and one of the main power lines went down, because it was overheated. That was one of the main transmission lines to the island.
The costs of heat domes, wildfires and many other climate change impacts are getting larger and larger and impacting the electricity grid, and those costs are going back to consumers.
If we want to talk about affordability, we need to talk about adaptation of the grid. Regardless of whether we are using renewable electricity or other types of electricity, we are still going to have blackouts and brownouts and electrical infrastructure that's impacted by those costs due to climate change. We need to mitigate climate change.
We also know that if we start to think locally and regionally with electricity transition, I think that we can manage it so that we can adapt to climate change and we can also have affordable, reliable electricity. Part of that affordability can be by having revenues go back to the communities that are helping shape that, including the jobs that can also go back to the communities.
Thank you very much.
Liberal
Peter Schiefke Liberal Vaudreuil—Soulanges, QC
Thank you, Dr. Hoicka. I appreciate very much your sharing your personal experience. I experienced something very similar three times in the last nine years in my own riding, with two record floods, as well as a rainstorm that dropped 156 millimetres in a 24-hour period, causing over 10,000 members of my own community to have their basements flooded. Every single one of us, me included, has seen our insurance rates go up.
Mr. MacDougall, followed by Mr. Dion, can we expect a nuclear winter if we make this transition to a green electricity grid and green energy sources?
Program Director, Electricity, The Pembina Institute
I think...probably not. In sifting through that a bit and in looking at some of the cost and reliability arguments around this, I think we're seeing, in a number of grids around the world, fairly quickly rising amounts of wind and solar on grids. That is, I think, a good demonstration that it can be done reliably. In our jurisdiction scan—I don't have the numbers at my fingertips right now—I think cost numbers are manageable within those jurisdictions as well.
Senior Research Director, Canadian Climate Institute
I think that what we're often seeing, in a lot of the discussion, planning and policy-making around this transition, is that there is a direct interest in making sure that this proceeds at a pace and with enough balance that people aren't adversely affected. We need to look at tools that can redistribute costs and affordability outcomes as well as to adopt a balanced approach that can avoid any especially challenging impacts of the energy transition.
Again, just to agree with Dr. Hoicka, I emphasize that climate change is already costing Canadians $700 a year per capita, according to our research, so this is something we can't avoid and a contribution to the solution is imperative.
Liberal
Charlie Angus NDP Timmins—James Bay, ON
Thank you, Chair.
There seems to be some confusion among some of our witnesses as to whether battery and wind is cheaper than natural gas. Certainly, the Clean Energy Canada report of 2023 did an excellent analysis for Ontario.... It said that wind and solar—with battery backup, which is, of course, necessary—was much cheaper than natural gas, yet Doug Ford opted for natural gas.
Professor Hoicka, you talk about the clean energy transition being interfered with by what you call “carbon lock-in”. You write, “Our policies, infrastructures, technologies and behaviours all reinforce continued fossil fuel use and inhibit the uptake of decarbonizing technologies.” What do you mean by that?
Associate Professor, Canada Research Chair in Urban Planning for Climate Change, University of Victoria, As an Individual
I was talking about policy mixes earlier. We have a lot of policies that are supporting our use of fossil fuels, and those policies need to be removed. We are missing a lot of policies—which I wrote about in my briefing note—that would help us to transition to renewable electricity. We need to remove the policies that are supporting fossil fuel use, add in policies that would help us transition to renewable electricity and, if those policies reinforce justice and resilience, we will transition more quickly.
NDP
Charlie Angus NDP Timmins—James Bay, ON
Thank you.
I was in Dublin last week at the European security council, and we talked about the climate change issue. It was amazing: Not a single European was knocking on our door to ask for LNG, despite all of the advertising that we see from the oil and gas lobby. They've set some very ambitious targets. It was embarrassing to be Canada, because they don't have any of the advantages that we have.
Professor, do you think that, because of the high power of the petrostate in Canada and of the oil and gas lobby, we are deliberately ragging the puck while our European competitors are locking into clean technologies that are going to put them at a much greater advantage over us?
Associate Professor, Canada Research Chair in Urban Planning for Climate Change, University of Victoria, As an Individual
One concern that I raised in my briefing note—and I read about this in a forthcoming report—is the fact that many of the renewable electricity procurement policies were stalled between, about, 2015 and 2019. Prior to those times, those policies were actually very successful. The renewable electricity co-operative sector is in attrition right now. I think we are not giving enough attention—
NDP
Charlie Angus NDP Timmins—James Bay, ON
I'm sorry, but can I just...? Are you saying that, during Mike Harris's reign, there was actually greater uptake than during Justin Trudeau's first four years? Can you just clarify that for me?
Associate Professor, Canada Research Chair in Urban Planning for Climate Change, University of Victoria, As an Individual
It was not Mike Harris. Many—
NDP
Liberal
Associate Professor, Canada Research Chair in Urban Planning for Climate Change, University of Victoria, As an Individual
There was uptake between 2010 and 2015 to 2019 of these policies that were mainly provincially based, although there were supports federally.
Liberal