Evidence of meeting #109 for Natural Resources in the 44th Parliament, 1st session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was tmx.
A video is available from Parliament.
Liberal
Liberal
Julie Dabrusin Liberal Toronto—Danforth, ON
Thank you, Mr. Chair.
It's been really interesting. I want to thank both of you for coming to speak with us today.
I'm going to start with Mr. George, but both witnesses today have been talking about the law, and both are presenting very different perspectives on what the future for this pipeline should be.
The question that I have is this: Under the Tsleil-Waututh Nation's laws, how would this get resolved? What would be the way to figure it out when we seem to have very differing points of view on what the future of this pipeline should be?
Spokesperson, Sacred Trust Initiative, Tsleil-Waututh Nation
It should have never been built. It should have never been built from the very beginning. When we went to the National Energy Board, they gave us 45 minutes to explain a 1,200-page assessment. At that time, they hired Steven Kelly to put in 20% of Kinder Morgan's application on behalf of Kinder Morgan to the National Energy Board. He then was hired by the National Energy Board. They said, “We're going to fix this mess,” which was the ministerial committee. They said that they hired first nations, but those first nations were former employees of Kinder Morgan. This is what we've been dealing with the whole time, right along the way.
What we do, as the Tsleil-Waututh Nation.... For the first time in 45 years, we did the clam harvest because we're cleaning. We hand-planted eelgrass, which brought back herring, which brought back gray whales. It was the first time I'd seen them in 40 years. I've never seen a sea lion in this inlet, and they came back. Our salmon count went down to 6,000—we brought it up too—10 years ago. We brought it up to 1.3 million in one day last year. It's up in the millions. That's what we're protecting.
Vancouver has been voted one of the most beautiful places to live, and that's what we want to continue to have it be. There are green energy alternatives. There are things that I work in that make sense. This doesn't make sense. Like I said, it's a $17-billion to $20-billion problem that isn't going to go away anytime soon. This is what the taxpayers are stuck with.
I'm afraid for my friend, my brother, my relation, that.... Like I said, it's economic smallpox. I'm happy to sit down with you and share the work that we have done and the work that we have done working with world-renowned economists that shows that this is a disaster.
Liberal
Julie Dabrusin Liberal Toronto—Danforth, ON
I appreciate that answer, but I'm trying to figure out how to resolve between the different perspectives we're getting.
Maybe I can then turn to you, Mr. Meguinis, as to what you would say. You've been talking about Natural Law. How would this get resolved when there's a very distinct difference of opinion here about this pipeline?
Commander-in-Chief, Red Nation Natural Law Energy
Respectfully, I don't want to come across as ignorant or too bold here, but I'll just say that there are a lot of things that should have happened. A lot of things should have taken place.
One thing that my forefathers would say is that residential schools shouldn't have happened, but we have to move forward. We have to try to practise what we know, and progress that is something that we understand. It's energy that we understand, too. Energy is spiritual.
I represent, like I said, a coalition. Our numbers in Alberta alone are in the tens of thousands from each nation. Saddle Lake Cree Nation has close to 15,000. You look at Maskwacis—there are 20,000.
Our numbers don't resemble how many numbers they have in other provinces. You go to Saskatchewan, and there are 72 nations there. In Alberta, there are 48 nations. You go to B.C., and there are 200 and something nations there. Our numbers are pretty high when it comes to demographics. There are a lot of leaders there who look to energy for survival.
Keep in mind that we haven't been at the table. It's going on over a century that we haven't been at the table to leave our thumbprint on resource development and to help maybe bring balance to what we see and what you and all your colleagues are talking about today and what a great leader from the NDP spoke about today as well.
I hear that, and we echo that. We're all responsible.
When we go out and do something, for anything that we do, if we take something from mother earth, we offer something first, because our natural laws are God-created and given. Canadian law is man-made. To activate a Canadian law, the way we look at it—and you hear it from elders—when you do something wrong with man-made laws, you get a sentence and something bad comes out of it. You break the law.
In our natural laws, you give first. You go take a plant from mother earth, you get a good smudge and something good comes to you. That's an ideology and an example I give back to you.
Liberal
Bloc
Mario Simard Bloc Jonquière, QC
Thank you very much, Mr. Chair.
Mr. George, is the interpretation working?
Spokesperson, Sacred Trust Initiative, Tsleil-Waututh Nation
I'm sorry. The translation is not working.
Bloc
Mario Simard Bloc Jonquière, QC
Thank you, Mr. Chair.
Mr. George, I appreciated your very frank testimony. I understand your bitterness and your disappointment, and you do the same thing as I do when you're angry: You eat chocolate. I find that very interesting.
I want to pick up on some of the things you brought up.
If I understand your testimony correctly, you feel that your community has been inadequately consulted throughout the Trans Mountain project. Am I wrong?
Spokesperson, Sacred Trust Initiative, Tsleil-Waututh Nation
Definitely we weren't consulted. That's why we ended up going to court. That's why we created our 1,200-page assessment, our spill analysis, our clean analysis and multiple economic studies. We had to push that and make sure that we were heard. It was every step of the way, from the very beginning with the National Energy Board over a decade ago to present time today.
That wasn't coming across in good faith. From the very beginning, from hiring former employees of Kinder Morgan to be a part of this, they were just showing the direction they wanted to go in, how they weren't going to listen and how they railroaded our indigenous rights.
Bloc
Mario Simard Bloc Jonquière, QC
So I understand that, in effect, you were consulted pro forma, without really listening to the point of view you had to put forward.
You said that you commissioned independent analyses. If possible, I'd like you to submit them to the committee. It might be interesting for our analysts.
You also said something that piqued my interest. You suggested that, ultimately, the government's willingness to cede or transfer the pipeline in any way to first nations was perhaps a sign of reconciliation. In fact, you think it would be a poisoned chalice, since we know very well that you will then have to manage all the problems related to potential spills. In the end, what you're being left with is a pipeline that isn't profitable.
Do you accept that analysis?
Spokesperson, Sacred Trust Initiative, Tsleil-Waututh Nation
Yes, and more so. Yes, we would love to file some more information about the troubles we had in this process. When Canada purchased the pipeline, the regulator of the pipeline, that made things really difficult for us.
I'm Coast Salish, and one of our longhouse leaders in our ceremonies, but also I've been adopted into sun dance families, which my brother was talking about. I have a declaration that over 30 sun dance chiefs signed, saying they opposed this because it's in our law.
What we receive in our ceremonies, which my brother was talking about, is enlightenment. Where that enlightenment comes from in ceremonies is how we all use in every single ceremony worldwide.... I have travelled the world and I have prayed in every corner of this earth. We use fire, earth, water and the sky. When we receive enlightenment, we also turn around and protect those things that we use, which are fire, earth, water, the sky and everything on top of that.
It's our law to protect what we love. It's our law to enhance what we love. That's what I was explaining about how Tsleil-Waututh introduced elk into our territory, which brought back grizzly bears, wolves and everything like that.
This is a stranded asset. If this toll goes through, it will be worse. Like I said, there will be $17 billion to $20 billion of debt that the taxpayers are going to be stuck with. The oil companies should pay for it, but if the tolling goes through, in our estimation, it's going to be $23 billion or $22 billion. Are they going to subsidize that? Is Canada going to subsidize that and put us further into debt? It's a big fear about what we're doing.
Can you imagine how we would be green energy leaders if we invested that money into something that makes sense and could help us all? If we did that, for example, it would be $180 million to build a hydrogen plant that would make 3,500 tonnes of green hydrogen a year. That would be enough money to deploy 200 heavy-duty hydrogen trucks and five fuelling stations, and it would go across with the debt of what they spent in that $34 billion. That would fund what I just explained, in 180 cities across Canada. That's what that would do. We would be green leaders, instead of funding something that's creating disasters, 434 fires and floods everywhere.
Anyway.... Okay. I saw that. I should stop.
Thank you.
Bloc
Mario Simard Bloc Jonquière, QC
I just want to take a second to thank you. Please don't hesitate to submit any information with the committee. I'd be happy to read it.
Spokesperson, Sacred Trust Initiative, Tsleil-Waututh Nation
Yes. We will, for sure.
Thank you.
NDP
Charlie Angus NDP Timmins—James Bay, ON
Thank you.
I really appreciate the presence of our two witnesses today. In a previous life, I was a negotiator with the first nations in Quebec. Sometimes, we had to run blockades. There were good projects and bad projects. I was involved in mining, forestry, hydro and projects that should have gone ahead, where they tried to ignore the communities, and projects that shouldn't have gone ahead.
I'm going to focus on you, Mr. George, because of this powerful document you have put out on the TMX. I want to get some answers on it. I have three basic sets of questions. I will try to get through them.
You are at the inlet where there's been a lot of concern about a possible blowout. We know what happened with the Enbridge blowout in the Kalamazoo River with bitumen. It's much worse than oil. It was disastrous, and they're still picking up the pieces.
In the first nations communities I worked in, the community that took the lead was the community that had the greatest impact on its traditional territory. Would you say you are facing serious risk if that blows out in your territory? As part of that, then, have you been approached to be part of the reconciliation pipeline?
Spokesperson, Sacred Trust Initiative, Tsleil-Waututh Nation
TMX is supposed to come up with its own spill analysis and it still hasn't. That was one of the conditions.
We did. Do you know what we found, Mr. Angus? Within hours, a million people would get sick. Five hundred thousand birds will die. You have people like my mom, who live here, and I live here. When we presented to the National Energy Board, we said that it's a shame that they're making decisions about people that are going to be here forever. We're not leaving anywhere.
We challenged them with a question: How many of their people live here today? How many of their kids who are adults have moved away already? They're nomadic people. We're not. My mom and me and my family are here forever. The catastrophic likeliness of a spill of over 85% is something that we can't stand for.
That's what we said from the very beginning.
NDP
Charlie Angus NDP Timmins—James Bay, ON
Thank you.
I just want to clarify that they don't have a spill plan and they were approved. That's pretty reckless, don't you think?
Spokesperson, Sacred Trust Initiative, Tsleil-Waututh Nation
They came up with it late. That was one of the conditions. I'm sorry; I am corrected. They did have a spill plan and came up with it late.
Spokesperson, Sacred Trust Initiative, Tsleil-Waututh Nation
They don't understand the dilbit. That wasn't included in that spill plan.
NDP
Charlie Angus NDP Timmins—James Bay, ON
That would be a big thing not to have included.
You've written that the tolls being less than half of what they should be has made this a project that the Canada Energy Regulator should never have approved. For the National Energy Board, the CER and even the federal cabinet decisions, the whole justification was that there was an economic argument. However, according to your analysis, more than half of the cost of every barrel of bitumen that goes down there right now is being covered by the taxpayer.
Based on that, you state that this violates the principles of the Canadian Energy Regulator Act and should have been struck.
Why do you think that this project went ahead?
