Natural Resources Committee on March 21st, 2022

[Mario Simard, Bloc, Jonquière, QC]

Thank you.

[The Chair, Liberal, John Aldag]

Thank you.

Mr. Angus, it's over to you for six minutes.

[Charlie Angus, NDP, Timmins—James Bay, ON]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Madame Lepine, I'm so glad that you are here. I'm going to ask a number of questions because I'm trying to get a picture for our committee for us to understand some of the impacts.

I come from Treaty No. 9, a little bit east of Treaty No. 8. I'm no stranger to tailings ponds. We call them “slimes” back home. Kids played on them. There's one pretty close to my house.

I'm trying to get a picture of just how big the tailings ponds from the oil sands are. One example I had for 1.4 trillion litres of water was 560,000 Olympic-size swimming pools running back to back from Fort McMurray to Australia and back again. That would be the amount of water. Or you could fit two cities of Vancouver in the tailings ponds that exist now at Fort McMurray and the oil sands operations to the north. Where does that water come from?

[Melody Lepine]

That's a good question.

It comes from our Athabasca River, which is actually declining in flow and inhibiting us from navigating and using our watersheds. It directly flows all the way down to the Peace-Athabasca Delta.

[Charlie Angus, NDP, Timmins—James Bay, ON]

We know the famous story of the 1,600 birds that died as they were migrating. They had made the mistake of stopping at Syncrude for a visit. Since then we've had multiple bird die-offs. Would you tell me that this water isn't really the most benign water on the planet, if birds flying over it just step down and die en masse?

[Melody Lepine]

Well, absolutely, what's within those tailings pond is highly toxic.

[Charlie Angus, NDP, Timmins—James Bay, ON]

I was reading about what's in those tailings ponds: benzene, toluene, hydrocarbons, cresols, cadmium and arsenic. I dealt with benzene, hydrocarbons and toluene in the community of Attawapiskat and the cancers they caused in children, and that site was minuscule compared to what's in these sites. Have you found...we've heard reports of elevated cancer in Fort Chip and other communities.

[Melody Lepine]

Yes.

[Charlie Angus, NDP, Timmins—James Bay, ON]

Yes, and we have reports that these ponds are leaking.

[Melody Lepine]

Yes, that's correct. I believe the federal government has reports that verify that. It was part of an investigation that I believe was under—Martin correct me if I'm wrong.... The name escapes me right now.

There was a commission that was looking at that not too long ago.

[Charlie Angus, NDP, Timmins—James Bay, ON]

I'm asking this because in five years the Trudeau government has given over $100 billion in subsidies to big oil. These subsidies are tax write-offs, incentives, grants and direct monies, but we don't talk about the subsidies that are given in the taking of your land and your water.

Am I correct that it takes four to six barrels of water from the Athabasca to make one barrel of bitumen?

[Melody Lepine]

That's roughly the amount. Yes, it could be three to four barrels, but yes, they use a lot of water.

[Charlie Angus, NDP, Timmins—James Bay, ON]

They don't pay for that water.

[Melody Lepine]

No, and they don't return it. They're looking to return it with this treatment and release technology that has not been developed yet.

[Charlie Angus, NDP, Timmins—James Bay, ON]

I guess I want to ask about that, then, because we keep hearing this concept: polluter pays. Everyone says “polluter pays” and we look after this, but we're looking, according to the Canada Energy Regulator, at a million-barrel increase a year in the coming years. That's going to increase a massive amount of pressure on the Athabasca River, which will put an enormous pressure on the tailings.

The solution, we're being told from industry, is, well, just let us dump it, and we'll make it a lot better for you. Do you believe that before that water is dumped in any capacity it has to be restored, reclaimed and made safe so that it is no threat to people, to the wildlife and to the fragile ecosystem of the Athabasca and the Mackenzie Delta?

[Melody Lepine]

Absolutely—we take the position of zero risk and zero liability not only today but for the future.

[Charlie Angus, NDP, Timmins—James Bay, ON]

I'm asking that because I was reading the thing about the mining associations. They have the obligation, which is the same in my region of Treaty No. 9, to restore the land.

They say they will restore the land back to nature, and their argument is that “[t]he more water that's stored on site, the less of the site itself is able to be reclaimed until there's an opportunity to release water and free up that space”, as though by allowing them to pump all of this cadmium, toulene and benzenes into the water, it will allow them to do the job of reclaiming the land.

Shouldn't they have to reclaim the water first and foremost, before any of that is released, or should any of it be released without guarantees?

[Melody Lepine]

None of it should be released—

[Charlie Angus, NDP, Timmins—James Bay, ON]

Okay.

[Melody Lepine]

—and on reclamation, yes, they promised reclamation 40 years ago when they started mining.

[Charlie Angus, NDP, Timmins—James Bay, ON]

I'm going to end on this, then, because they are making record profits. They've asked the Canadian government to give them $75 billion for carbon capture. They're making money hand over fist right now. They're going to look at an increase in production of a million barrels a year.

Wouldn't it be just reasonable to say, before you do any increase, we want to know what you're going to do to protect the water, how you're going to deal with the damage that you've done, and how you're going to ensure that any new water going forward will be returned in a manner that is protecting the environment, protecting the people and protecting the rights of the Cree, Dene and Métis people of the region?

[The Chair, Liberal, John Aldag]

We'll have a brief response to that and then move on to our next questioner.

[Melody Lepine]

That is our goal, Mr. Angus. It's to protect the treaty, the ecological health of our region, including one of the world's largest freshwater deltas, a world UNESCO site, Canada's largest national park, and really important to me is the health of the people. We have some of the highest rates of cancer and diseases that are not known to many places in Canada in our community.

[Charlie Angus, NDP, Timmins—James Bay, ON]

Thank you for that, and I would love to visit at some point.

[The Chair, Liberal, John Aldag]

We're going next to Mr. Bragdon if he's ready.

In this round, we have five minutes.