Natural Resources Committee on March 21st, 2022

[Richard Bragdon, Conservative, Tobique—Mactaquac, NB]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

I'm going to give my spot to my colleague, Mr. Maguire. We're changing spots here.

[The Chair, Liberal, John Aldag]

Mr. Maguire, we'll go over to you for five minutes.

[Larry Maguire, Conservative, Brandon—Souris, MB]

Thanks, Mr. Chair, and thank you to the witnesses today for their testimony.

I want to follow up a bit with you, Ms. Lepine. Your Mikisew Cree First Nation has been one of the leaders in oil sands partnership, specializing in the construction, maintenance, servicing and logistics in the field.

The Liberal government is looking at introducing an action plan to implement UNDRIP. Do you see any challenges with the government imposing an emissions cap on indigenous-led energy projects?

[Melody Lepine]

No, I don't think so. I can't think of any challenges right now.

[Larry Maguire, Conservative, Brandon—Souris, MB]

Thank you.

I think it's vital that first nations be economically independent. As we've heard from previous witnesses in this study, natural resource projects are an excellent way to accomplish this, through employment and partnerships. If the oil and gas production does go down, how would this impact the indigenous jobs in your sector in your communities?

[Melody Lepine]

There could definitely be job loss, for sure. There are a lot of employment and economic opportunities provided by the oil and gas sector, and that's why we are asking for a transition.

We had a very vibrant economy well before the oil sands, so we would like to look at solutions for other alternatives to our economic well-being. I don't think the answer is being dependent on one natural resource sector. First nations can thrive in many different economic opportunities, within natural sources or within community sustainability initiatives such as tourism and protecting culture.

I mentioned that we're within Canada's largest national park. There are many opportunities for economic sustainability within that resource, as an example.

[Larry Maguire, Conservative, Brandon—Souris, MB]

I'll give you a chance to expand on that.

When the government is looking at designing an emissions cap—this emissions cap—what would be the best way for them to support the indigenous partnerships?

[Melody Lepine]

I think it's adaptation, transition, seeking ways to find alternatives, seeking ways to transition, not allowing small indigenous communities to be solely dependent on one sector and basically putting all of our eggs in one basket. We have to sacrifice so many other things to solely be dependent on one thing.

[Larry Maguire, Conservative, Brandon—Souris, MB]

Thanks.

According to a study by the Macdonald-Laurier Institute, the oil, gas and mining sectors represent about eight of the top 10 highest-paying occupations for indigenous peoples in Canada. How would the indigenous peoples be affected economically if oil and gas production declined? There's one thing to lose jobs, but of course there's an economic impact as well, and you have a lot of investment there, I understand.

[Melody Lepine]

I think a lot more research and studies could be looking at economics. The new buzzword I'm hearing today is “economic reconciliation”. What does that mean? Exploring that notion of economic reconciliation could mean the presentation of untapped economic opportunities that may not have been considered before a lot of the more traditional practices of today.

[Larry Maguire, Conservative, Brandon—Souris, MB]

I heard your comment earlier about it not being fair to start a development like that and then shut it down. It does impact the lives of a lot of people.

I had the opportunity of being in Fort Mac about 10 or 12 years ago to look at the types of reclamation going on there, which were pretty tremendous. There's change there, no doubt about it, and they use a lot less water now than they did 10 or 15 years ago in that process.

I thank you for your comments in regard to the impacts.

I want to switch to Mr. Rivers for a minute.

The Canadian Climate Institute put out a report this month outlining the framework of Canada's emissions reductions plan, in which you're acknowledged as a reviewer. It's a key observation that “Global oil prices are one of the major determinants of the oil and gas sector's output, and therefore its emissions. Since international oil prices are beyond Canada's control and given the oil and gas sector's large share of national emissions, policies in all sectors should be flexible and adaptable enough to respond to changing global conditions.”

Given the current events, do you think this statement should make the government pause and think before establishing an emissions cap?

[The Chair, Liberal, John Aldag]

Can you answer that very briefly? We've run out of time, so it won't do you much justice.

[Larry Maguire, Conservative, Brandon—Souris, MB]

Thanks, Mr. Chair.

[Dr. Nicholas Rivers]

Thanks for the question.

I would emphasize that the social costs of oil and gas are consistent regardless of the international context. I think we want to be designing our institutions and policies around oil and gas for the long term.

Of course, we want to be thinking about the day-to-day events but we want to be designing these policies to reduce emissions over the half-century to century time frame.

[Larry Maguire, Conservative, Brandon—Souris, MB]

Thank you.

[The Chair, Liberal, John Aldag]

Thank you.

Now we're going to go to Mr. Chahal.

You have five minutes.

[George Chahal, Liberal, Calgary Skyview, AB]

Thank you, Chair.

I want to thank all the witnesses for their testimony today. I want to start with Monsieur Pasquier. He talked a little bit about the role of CCUS and the importance of the technology.

Monsieur Pasquier, do you believe that CCUS is an important technology and is within the government's role of supporting emerging technologies?

[Louis-César Pasquier]

The short answer is yes. CCUS is an important technology but it is not the only technology. It should be amongst a lot of solutions. Furthermore, it should not be the reason that we actually fail to make the changes we need to make regarding our use of fossil fuels and energy in general.

[George Chahal, Liberal, Calgary Skyview, AB]

You do believe it's an important technology and that we should look at this technology and at other technologies in reducing emissions?

[Louis-César Pasquier]

Yes. To put it more in context, I've been in this field for more than 10 years. The evolution is very slow. I would say that before the SaskPower capture plant was started, people were thinking that it was the solution and that we had the solution for clean energy, clean oil and gas, but the fact is that today, that's not the case.

On the other side, in Europe, the price on carbon is pushing a lot of new projects that put CCS or CCU in front.

My conclusion or observation is that the energy, and more specifically the oil and gas sector, has had its chance and has not yet met the target regarding the use of CCUS.

[George Chahal, Liberal, Calgary Skyview, AB]

Thank you, Mr. Pasquier, for your comments.

Mr. Séguin, you talked about leakage of oil and gas abroad. How could Canada work with key trading partners like the United States in developing carbon adjustments?

[Dr. Charles Séguin]

I'm not sure what is being referred to. Do you mean carbon border adjustments or...?

[George Chahal, Liberal, Calgary Skyview, AB]

That's correct. It's carbon border adjustments.

[Dr. Charles Séguin]

Good. The big challenge here will be moving from regulation that targets facilities to regulation that targets the product, because the facilities don't move, but the products get traded.

In oil and gas, it's probably a little bit easier because projects are more homogenous. If we wanted to work that out with the United States, we would have to agree on a common measurement, because the oil and gas flow both ways across the border. We would want the price to be applied the same way. It would be more difficult because right now, I don't know if the Americans have Canada in mind very much. They really have Europe in mind, which is more advanced on carbon border adjustments, and they want non-price measures to be taken into account in the tariff that would be applied at the border. It's very hard to evaluate the monetary impact of these non-price measures because they are imperfectly translated into the price of the different products.

It's very challenging, and I think it won't come to be implemented for many years.

[George Chahal, Liberal, Calgary Skyview, AB]

Thank you for your insights on that.

I'm going to go to Mr. Rivers.

Mr. Rivers, what role do you believe natural gas should have in helping us transition to net zero?