Evidence of meeting #112 for Natural Resources in the 44th Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was project.

A video is available from Parliament.

On the agenda

MPs speaking

Also speaking

Greg Reade  Assistant Deputy Minister, Economic Development and Corporate Finance Branch, Department of Finance
Jeff Labonté  Associate Deputy Minister, Department of Natural Resources
Anne David  Director, Corporate Finance and Asset Management, Economic Development and Corporate Finance Branch, Department of Finance

The Chair Liberal George Chahal

I call this meeting to order.

Welcome to meeting number 112 of the House of Commons Standing Committee on Natural Resources.

Pursuant to Standing Order 108(2) and the motion adopted by the committee on Thursday, June 6, 2024, the committee is resuming its study of the Trans Mountain pipeline expansion.

Today's meeting is taking place in a hybrid format. I would like to remind participants of the following points. Please wait until I recognize you by name before speaking. All comments should be addressed through the chair.

Members, please raise your hand if you wish to speak, whether participating in person or via Zoom. The clerk and I will manage the speaking order as best we can.

I would now like to welcome our guests appearing with us today.

We have the Honourable Chrystia Freeland, Deputy Prime Minister and Minister of Finance, and the Honourable Jonathan Wilkinson, Minister of Energy and Natural Resources.

From the Department of Finance, we have Greg Reade, assistant deputy minister, economic development and corporate branch.

From the Department of Natural Resources, we have Kimberly Lavoie, assistant deputy minister; Jeff Labonté, associate deputy minister; and Scott Clausen, director of petroleum and biofuels division, analysis and operations branch.

Welcome to everybody.

We'll start with our opening statements.

Minister Freeland, you have five minutes for your opening statement.

11:05 a.m.

University—Rosedale Ontario

Liberal

Chrystia Freeland LiberalDeputy Prime Minister and Minister of Finance

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

I'm really pleased to be here with you.

Our government acquired Trans Mountain and the pipeline expansion project in 2018. We knew then that we were making a necessary investment to enhance Canada's sovereignty and resilience, and to grow the Canadian economy.

Today I want to highlight four areas where the project is delivering positive results for Canada.

First, this project is helping to ensure that Canada gets fair market value for our resources. One of the key ways to see the economic impact of this project is the higher price that Canadian resources are getting on the global market, often measured by the price differential between Canadian oil and American oil. In 2018 the price differential between each barrel of West Texas Intermediate and Western Canadian Select peaked as high as $50 a barrel. That's a discount representing almost 70% of the WTI price on every barrel of WCS sold.

Since the Trans Mountain expansion was brought into service in the second quarter of this year, this average differential has closed, sitting at about $12 U.S. per barrel, or just 17% of the WTI price. This is really important. This is money that Canada was just giving away. This is now money that Canada has for ourselves, for Canadian workers and for provincial and federal governments to invest in the things Canadians need.

Second, this investment contributes to good jobs and economic growth across Canada. Canadian workers in the oil and gas sector earn, on average, about $3,000 per week, almost two and a half times the average weekly earnings in Canada overall. The Bank of Canada has estimated that the Trans Mountain expansion will increase GDP by about 0.25% in a single year. That is a considerable boost to our economy.

All of this means good jobs and more revenue for federal and provincial governments that can be used for public services that really matter to us, such as health care, education and housing infrastructure.

The pipeline is also having a positive impact on central Canada's manufacturing industry, creating stable demand for materials and industrial products. According to the Canadian Steel Producers Association, approximately 30% of all steel used in Canada is used by the oil and gas sector. This is just one example of how the pipeline's benefits extend beyond Alberta. In fact, it's a national infrastructure project that's stimulating economic growth and creating good jobs across the country.

Third, this project is helping get Canadian resources to world markets, even as the western alliance is constraining Russia's access to global markets for its oil. In a very real way, this project is helping us to support the brave people of Ukraine and to constrain Putin's ability to fight against them.

Fourth, this project is an important step towards economic reconciliation with indigenous peoples. Indigenous peoples have benefited from the project and will continue to do so.

Is my time up?

The Chair Liberal George Chahal

You have one minute.

Chrystia Freeland Liberal University—Rosedale, ON

Okay. Great.

During construction, indigenous people represented 10% of all workers on the expansion. Over 20% of construction contracts went to indigenous contractors, resulting in more than $6 billion awarded to indigenous businesses and partnerships.

Clearly, the new, expanded network offers economic and social benefits for Canada. Its acquisition, construction and operation represent a significant investment in the Canadian economy today and for years to come.

This project is good for our workers. It's good for our economy. It is good for our national security and the security of our allies. It's a project Danielle Smith and Rachel Notley both support. I think that is really evidence it's something in the national interest. I'm glad we were able to get it done together.

The Chair Liberal George Chahal

Thank you, Minister Freeland, for your opening statement.

I'll now go to Minister Wilkinson for your opening statement.

You have five minutes.

11:05 a.m.

North Vancouver B.C.

Liberal

Jonathan Wilkinson LiberalMinister of Energy and Natural Resources

Thank you, and thanks for the invitation to be with you today.

Immediately prior to 2015, major projects simply could not get built in this country because Stephen Harper and his Conservative government gutted environmental protections and sidelined indigenous voices. They eroded the confidence that Canadians had in environmental processes in this country. That was true in the case of many major projects, including the Trans Mountain pipeline expansion.

When this government came to power, we did so with a commitment to ensure additional examination and consultation in the review and a medium-term commitment to restore the integrity of federal assessment processes. There were 156 binding conditions relating to safety and the environment placed on the project, and an indigenous advisory monitoring committee was established.

In 2018, a new government of B.C. made a commitment to use every tool in the tool box to halt TMX. Its actions created such uncertainty that the project proponent decided to walk away. The federal government intervened to ensure that this project, one that was and is of national significance, would be completed. The project has generated and will continue to generate significant economic benefits for Canada. During construction, 37,000 jobs were created and 25% of contracts awarded were for indigenous businesses and partnerships, totalling $6.5 billion.

In operation, TMX is having significant positive economic impacts. The Bank of Canada says the project will increase Canada's GDP by up to half a percentage point. Ernst & Young says the project will result in $38 billion in additional provincial royalties, $21 billion in corporate income taxes and $127 billion in GDP increase over the next 20 years. Moreover, the price differential, as the deputy prime minister said, has narrowed by several dollars and analysis shows this could further narrow by the end of the year. Every dollar that the differential narrows is equivalent to $1 billion added to our economy.

I think all members would agree that selling our energy at a discounted rate and not enabling Canada to extract full value for its resources is not a good idea, and this was a very key rationale underlying the construction of the pipeline.

As I noted, the pipeline was built with an emphasis on ensuring safety and environmental protection. Shipping oil by pipeline rather than by rail is far preferable, both in terms of safety and emissions. We also worked hard to ensure that TMX would be fully compatible with Canada's climate plan. All emissions associated with pipeline construction, operation and the production of oil that flows through the pipeline have been accounted for in the climate plan.

Our climate plan is one of the most comprehensive in the world. It addresses emissions from all sectors of the economy, including the oil and gas sector. Initiatives such as methane regulations and the upcoming emissions cap, which will require the sector to significantly reduce its emissions, have enabled Canada to become a climate leader.

The climate plan is working. We have fundamentally changed the trajectory of emissions in Canada, which were rising steadily under Stephen Harper. Emissions are now 8% below 2005 levels, and on a downward trajectory. Emissions would be 41% higher had the Conservatives remained in power. Unfortunately, given the NDP's recent decision to reject carbon pricing, their approach to tackling climate change would result in at least 212 million tonnes more emissions by 2030.

Our climate plan is not just a plan for reducing emissions. It is also a plan for ensuring a prosperous future for Canada. To remain economically competitive, we must recognize that the world is transitioning to a low-carbon future and we must take thoughtful actions to seize key areas of opportunity.

Governments around the world are increasingly taking action. Our major allies are all putting in place strategies for accelerating clean industrial growth. Beyond our allies, China is moving aggressively to dominate opportunities in wind, solar, EVs and critical minerals. China's major bet on the energy transition is something that should be a wake-up call for those politicians in Canada who continue to pretend that future prosperity lies in pursuing pathways that the energy transition is fundamentally disrupting as we speak.

TMX was and is a project of national significance. It is producing significant economic benefits for the country and ensuring that as we transition to a low-carbon future over the coming 25 years, Canada is extracting full value for its natural resources. We have ensured that it is consistent with Canada's climate plan and our drive towards a net-zero future.

With that, I welcome your questions.

The Chair Liberal George Chahal

Thank you, Minister.

We'll now go to our first round of questions.

We'll start with Mrs. Stubbs for six minutes. The floor is yours.

11:10 a.m.

Conservative

Shannon Stubbs Conservative Lakeland, AB

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Thank you, Minister Freeland and Minister Wilkinson, for being here today.

Of course, the Conservatives always supported the nation-building Trans Mountain pipeline expansion, which was undeniably in federal jurisdiction. What we advocated for, though, was for the federal government to assert federal jurisdiction and the rule of law to ensure that the private sector proponent could get that pipeline built on their dime and on their schedule.

Minister Freeland, do you agree with StatsCan in its report from last Thursday that if Canada didn't have contributions from oil and gas right now, it would be in a recession?

Chrystia Freeland Liberal University—Rosedale, ON

The strength of the Canadian economy today and in the past is very much built on our oil and gas sector. I absolutely recognize the value that it brings in terms of jobs, in terms of revenues and in terms of our trade balance.

11:15 a.m.

Conservative

Shannon Stubbs Conservative Lakeland, AB

The two things that report said are keeping Canada's economy going are public sector spending and oil and gas production. The problem is that, because your government killed two other potential export pipelines, northern gateway and energy east, and only now is getting the Trans Mountain expansion built and starting to operate as a $34 billion liability on taxpayers, pipeline capacity is actually full, which will automatically cut production as well as Canadian energy businesses, jobs and opportunities.

Based on that, how can the Liberals and their anti-energy, anti-private sector colleagues possibly justify imposing a job-killing oil and gas cap on Canada?

Chrystia Freeland Liberal University—Rosedale, ON

I'm going to start answering the question, and Minister Wilkinson may want to offer some thoughts.

I do think that in the areas where it's possible for everyone on this committee and everyone in our House to agree, we should. I think that it is really meaningful and actually great that we have completed a nation-building project that both Rachel Notley and Danielle Smith support. That is a good thing for Canada.

I also absolutely agree, as do all economists, that oil and gas is an important part of Canada's economy.

11:15 a.m.

Conservative

Shannon Stubbs Conservative Lakeland, AB

My question was about the emissions.

Chrystia Freeland Liberal University—Rosedale, ON

Hang on.

Having said that, it is absolutely inappropriate for Conservatives to criticize our government when it comes to pipelines. We got a pipeline built to tidewater, and Conservatives did not. That is the reality. This is a nation-building project.

In the Calgary Herald, there was a senior Alberta energy leader who talked about this as a nation-building project, and it was our government that got it built.

11:15 a.m.

Conservative

Shannon Stubbs Conservative Lakeland, AB

Minister Freeland, I asked about the emissions cap.

Potentially you can answer this question: Does the United States, Canada's biggest competitor and customer, because of your lack of getting pipelines done, impose a job-killing oil and gas cap on itself? Does it?

Chrystia Freeland Liberal University—Rosedale, ON

The key question here is this: Who got a pipeline built, and who didn't? The answer is that our government built it. It's a nation-building project that is contributing meaningfully to our national prosperity and to good wages for Canadian workers.

11:15 a.m.

Conservative

Shannon Stubbs Conservative Lakeland, AB

The answer is that the United States does not. How about Mexico? Does Mexico impose an oil-and-gas emissions cap on itself?

I'm asking about [Inaudible—Editor].

Chrystia Freeland Liberal University—Rosedale, ON

I think that is a good record that I'm proud to stand on.

Jonathan Wilkinson Liberal North Vancouver, BC

I'm happy to answer the question about the emissions cap.

11:15 a.m.

Conservative

Shannon Stubbs Conservative Lakeland, AB

I'm asking Minister Freeland, Mr. Wilkinson. Thanks for your offer.

Jonathan Wilkinson Liberal North Vancouver, BC

The emissions cap has not actually been announced to date, but it is both an important part of reducing carbon emissions in line with what science tells us we must—

The Chair Liberal George Chahal

Minister Wilkinson, can I ask you to hold on for one second?

We have a point of order.

Go ahead, Mr. Falk, on a point of order.

11:15 a.m.

Conservative

Ted Falk Conservative Provencher, MB

Mrs. Stubbs specifically asked a question of Minister Freeland, and I think it would only be appropriate and proper for Minister Freeland to answer the question and not Minister Wilkinson.

Jonathan Wilkinson Liberal North Vancouver, BC

I would say that the emissions cap actually falls within my area of authority.

The Chair Liberal George Chahal

Sorry, Mr. Falk, but I'm going to ask you to hold on for one second.

To address your point of order procedurally, a question was asked of Minister Freeland, but the emissions cap does fall under Minister Wilkinson's mandate and jurisdiction. If you want a specific answer on that, I think it is appropriate for Minister Wilkinson to respond.

I will go back to Mrs. Stubbs, because it is her time to ask questions.

This is a good reminder for committee members that if you ask a question, allow the ministers to answer so they can give a fulsome response to the question asked.

Mrs. Stubbs, I'm going to go back to you. If you'd like to direct that question over there, please go ahead.

11:15 a.m.

Conservative

Shannon Stubbs Conservative Lakeland, AB

Well, Chair, I certainly will, when the question is actually answered.

Minister Wilkinson, can you confirm whether or not the United States, Canada's biggest competitor and customer; OPEC producers, Canada's biggest competitors in hostile regimes; Mexico, Canada's North American competitor; Norway; European countries; countries in southern Africa or in South America impose on themselves a job-killing oil and gas emissions cap? Can you confirm that?