Natural Resources Committee on May 16th, 2022

[Michael Burt]

There are 4,000 communities in Canada, so it's hard to say what each one will do. What we've been trying to do is build an archetype of maybe 10 or 15 different types of communities that we see in Canada and what those transitions look like.

A lot of this boils down to what your industry mix looks like in your community right now. If you have a coal mine in your community, this might be a very different conversation from the one you would have if you had a new windmill farm built just outside of your community.

It's understanding what you have, where you need to go and how you can make that connection. If you have a good understanding of what the skills are in your community right now, it can give you better guidance in terms of where you go when you're talking about economic development efforts. Otherwise, you end up with everybody chasing after the same ball, if you will, or the same ideal.

[Viviane LaPointe, Liberal, Sudbury, ON]

When you say that many jobs we did not define as green-collar jobs will move up the green continuum over the period, were you referring to skilled trades? Are the trades adaptable to a green economy?

[Michael Burt]

It could include skilled trades. Basically, almost any role could move up the green continuum over time. Certainly the skilled trades could be part of that. The construction sector we see as a big part of it, particularly the energy efficiency industry that we talked about in our particular paper. Yes, definitely skilled trades would be part of that.

[Viviane LaPointe, Liberal, Sudbury, ON]

I'd like to provide Mr. Agnew with the opportunity to also respond to my first question about early partnerships between educators and industry on training and academic programs.

[David Agnew]

Absolutely. Every one of our programs has what we call a program advisory committee. We also use those in program development. These are committees made up of people from the industry we serve or that program serves.

It's absolutely vital, not only at the beginning and development of a program but ongoing, to make sure we understand how the industry is evolving and understand the new skills that are required, both from an entry level and also, as we talked a lot about today, in the reskilling and upskilling of existing workers.

[Viviane LaPointe, Liberal, Sudbury, ON]

Thank you.

How much time do I have time, Mr. Chair?

[The Chair, Liberal, John Aldag]

You still have half a minute left.

[Viviane LaPointe, Liberal, Sudbury, ON]

Also, what are your thoughts on that green continuum over this period for the skilled trades?

[David Agnew]

I'll confess that we don't do trade programs, but that's absolutely essential. The built environment is a huge source of the challenge on the climate crisis. The construction trades, for instance, are going to have to be a kind of front line in the march towards the low-carbon economy. It's really critical.

[Viviane LaPointe, Liberal, Sudbury, ON]

Thank you.

[The Chair, Liberal, John Aldag]

Now we're going to go over to—

Go ahead, Mr. Maguire.

[Larry Maguire, Conservative, Brandon—Souris, MB]

I would suggest that we hear the Bloc and the NDP and then let our witnesses go.

I also want to make sure, though, that we get the full hour if this happens again when we're having a vote, and that we do get the full hour with the minister on the Wednesday coming up, because it's on estimates.

[The Chair, Liberal, John Aldag]

For Wednesday, we have the minister until five o'clock, or two rounds. We'll see what we can get in there. I think there are a couple of votes on Wednesday, so we'll get started as quickly as we can.

[Larry Maguire, Conservative, Brandon—Souris, MB]

Yes, that's fine, as long as we get the full time that was allotted for it.

[The Chair, Liberal, John Aldag]

We'll squeeze every minute out of it that we can.

We'll go now to Madame Pauzé for two and a half minutes.

For the witnesses, this and the next two minutes will go quite quickly.

[Monique Pauzé]

My question is along the same lines as Ms. Lapointe's first question, but it will be for Ms. Williams.

Ms. Williams, in your opening remarks, you talked about inequality between regions. The document you sent to us mentions this as well.

What is the reason for this inequality between regions? How can we fix this to restore equality between them?

[Dr. Tricia Williams]

It's a point that I think we've been focusing on increasingly in recent months. As my colleague Noel said, it's something that we're really attuned to addressing. I think it points to the diversity of regions and sectors across Canada.

To our understanding, there's been more of the 20,000-foot view and, really, if we need to land the plane, we need to understand what it looks like for sectors and regions specifically. We're working with hundreds of employers across Canada, if not thousands, and they're saying that it's different in each place.

[Monique Pauzé]

Thank you, Ms. Williams.

My next question is for Mr. Rousseau from the Canadian Labour Congress.

Mr. Rousseau, you are calling for the government to invest billions of dollars over five years to foster the development of renewable energy and support training in the field, as well as transitional measures. I'm thinking in particular of measures relating to energy-efficient home renovations, for which people already receive federal government grants.

In Quebec, the Commission des partenaires du marché du travail has established advisory committees further to an agreement with the federal government in 1997.

It would be a good idea for Quebec to maintain an open, integrated and universal model for public services related to employment and training, focusing on client needs. This would be helpful to the regions.

I imagine you would agree that this potential multibillion-dollar investment should include a mechanism for sending the funds to Quebec and the provinces and having them manage the money.

Is that correct?

[Larry Rousseau]

I'm not going to get into federal-provincial negotiations, but we have a model in Quebec endorsed by the Canadian Labour Congress. Our colleagues at the Fédération des travailleurs et travailleuses du Québec (FTQ) often say that we need high-level strategies. Labour, private industry and government must work together. It won't be possible to carry out a just transition without a partnership like that.

[Monique Pauzé]

I'm sorry to interrupt you, but my time is up.

Thank you very much.

[Larry Rousseau]

All right.

[The Chair, Liberal, John Aldag]

Thank you, Ms. Pauzé.

We'll now go to Mr. Angus for his final two and a half minutes.

[Charlie Angus, NDP, Timmins—James Bay, ON]

Thank you.

Ms. Williams, I want to follow up on something you said earlier and that I've been very perturbed by since I heard it.

When we talk with Alberta workers and they talk about the transition being under way already, to me that's a sign that there's a sense of urgency, because obviously this is a Canadian issue, but Alberta is certainly going to be where much of this is settled.

We've heard from people—organizations—who talk about the huge opportunities in green tech, but they all come with a big “if”—if there's clear investment and sustained investment, because this economy is not just going to create itself out of thin air—and yet you say the research on where these jobs are hasn't been done. That, to me, is a really frightening red flag. Could you explain?

[Dr. Tricia Williams]

Absolutely, and I couldn't agree more.

We're about to embark on a partnership with the Smart Prosperity Institute, and what we will be doing is regional and sectoral analysis very specifically targeted to where job opportunities are and where there are risks.

Without intervention I think we potentially risk people not being brought along and not being able to make those transitions. We've tested this on the ground with different organizations and different training interventions to find out how you take a person from point A to point B. We've done the numbers, not just on whether they finish a course but on whether they get a job at the end. What's their salary? What does that look like?

[Charlie Angus, NDP, Timmins—James Bay, ON]

This concerns me. I've lived through unjust transitions in northern Ontario, and I've seen the disaster that it is.

The environment commissioner had said that the coal transition wasn't properly thought out, and that transition was of limited scale. We're talking about targets that we need to hit in 2030. That's just over seven years away, and suddenly we're going to transition an entire economy without a plan?

What do we need to do to put that in place, to reassure workers but also to make sure that we're going to meet our international obligations to transition to cleaner technologies?