Natural Resources Committee on June 1st, 2022

[Charlie Angus, NDP, Timmins—James Bay, ON]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Thank you, Minister Wilkinson.

Thank you, Minister O'Regan. I think it's the first time that I've been able to speak with you at committee, so I will focus on you today.

We've been hearing loud and clear from the Canadian Association of Petroleum Producers that they believe Canada needs to focus on increasing oil and gas exports to global markets.

The other day at committee, my Liberal colleague, Mr. Sorbara, totally supported the CAPP position when he told them that “the world needs more of Canada's energy”.

Is that the policy of this government? To increase oil production for export...?

[Seamus O'Regan, Liberal, St. John's South—Mount Pearl, NL]

Look, we don't live in a state that determines these things offhand, right? We live in a country in which these companies will determine what their production levels are.

Where I think that we've taken I think very constructive measures is in putting in an emissions reduction plan with teeth that gets down to the numbers. I think that will certainly incent the lowering of emissions in the production of oil, but the production of oil most certainly will continue, and I think the world is going to be looking for safer, lower-emitting and more secure sources of oil.

[Charlie Angus, NDP, Timmins—James Bay, ON]

The CER, the Canada Energy Regulator, expects a 1.2 million barrel a day increase. Would that be something that you think your government supports?

[Seamus O'Regan, Liberal, St. John's South—Mount Pearl, NL]

There's an expectation, and that's not the same as an order. Let's not imply anything—

[Charlie Angus, NDP, Timmins—James Bay, ON]

No, no. I didn't say that.

You were the guy who made sure TMX went ahead. That's going to give us about another 800,000 barrels a day. My question is on whether your policy is that you are going to look to help CAPP and the oil sector meet the international markets for increased oil production in Canada.

[Seamus O'Regan, Liberal, St. John's South—Mount Pearl, NL]

I think that our policies are clear, now that we have an emissions reduction plan as of this spring.

[Charlie Angus, NDP, Timmins—James Bay, ON]

But you don't have a cap. We haven't heard anything about a cap.

[Seamus O'Regan, Liberal, St. John's South—Mount Pearl, NL]

We have an emissions reduction plan that certainly sets those for different industries.

[Charlie Angus, NDP, Timmins—James Bay, ON]

I don't know. Just help me. Every time I talk to the Liberal government, you guys are like “We're going to lower emissions of production.”

You do agree that if you burn oil anywhere in the world, you're adding carbon, right? Can we agree on that?

[Seamus O'Regan, Liberal, St. John's South—Mount Pearl, NL]

Mr. Angus, I'm not here for juvenile debates on these issues. I think we both know that it is much more—

[Charlie Angus, NDP, Timmins—James Bay, ON]

No, I think it's the heart of the matter. It is the heart of the matter.

Do you believe that if you sell 1.2 million barrels overseas and it is burned, that those emissions don't count to the planet?

[Seamus O'Regan, Liberal, St. John's South—Mount Pearl, NL]

I think that they count whether or not you burn them outside of the country or inside of the country.

[Charlie Angus, NDP, Timmins—James Bay, ON]

Okay. That's good.

Earlier you began by saying we aren't transitioning, that we have to keep people in the industry, that the biggest problem we are facing right now is the shortage of energy workers in the oil sector. Then you mentioned that the orphan gas program was about a job—keeping people working.

I guess the question I'd ask is this. Given the climate crisis, your biggest priority was covering off the billions in damages caused by oil companies who walked away, and your focus is keeping people in the oil industry, so why are we talking about just transition? Why not just say, “Hey, we have to find more workers in the oil sector. We've got overseas markets. That's our focus”?

Why are we talking about just transition?

[Seamus O'Regan, Liberal, St. John's South—Mount Pearl, NL]

Mr. Angus, I wish I existed in your world where magic wands make things happen, but they don't.

[Charlie Angus, NDP, Timmins—James Bay, ON]

I don't have a magic wand, sir. What I want to know is, are you spinning us here? Are you serious?

[Seamus O'Regan, Liberal, St. John's South—Mount Pearl, NL]

You act like you do.

I will tell you who does this work. It is the workers of this country. If they are not in this industry, they are not going to be able to do the work that they need to do to—

[Charlie Angus, NDP, Timmins—James Bay, ON]

The oil sector is the work of this country. I agree that it always has been—

[Seamus O'Regan, Liberal, St. John's South—Mount Pearl, NL]

No, no. It is the workers of this industry.

[Charlie Angus, NDP, Timmins—James Bay, ON]

—but we are dealing with a climate crisis, sir. The question is, if your biggest priority is getting more workers into the oil sector, where the emissions are going to go up, why are we wasting time talking about a so-called just transition?

[Seamus O'Regan, Liberal, St. John's South—Mount Pearl, NL]

A waste of time is certainly a phrase that comes to mind right now.

Let me be very blunt with you.

[Charlie Angus, NDP, Timmins—James Bay, ON]

You keep treating me like I'm some kind of child, sir.

[Seamus O'Regan, Liberal, St. John's South—Mount Pearl, NL]

The lowering of emissions is not something—

[Charlie Angus, NDP, Timmins—James Bay, ON]

The question is—

[The Chair, Liberal, John Aldag]

Sorry, I'm just going to stop the clock. When we have two people talking, interpretation can't hear.

Mr. Angus, you asked a question of the minister.

[Charlie Angus, NDP, Timmins—James Bay, ON]

Well, actually no; I didn't get to ask the question.