Natural Resources Committee on Feb. 2nd, 2022

[Jonathan Wilkinson, Liberal, North Vancouver, BC]

The officials in my department are professionals, just as the commissioner is a professional. They had a difference of opinion with respect to the boundary conditions that one uses in accounting for emissions reductions. Ours aligns with the World Resources Institute and the International Energy Agency's methodology. He had a broader definition of emissions that would be captured under the cap. There was a legitimate difference of opinion.

[The Chair, Liberal, John Aldag]

We're out of time on this one. Thank you.

When we're having our exchanges, it's good to get into it, but if we could just have one person speaking.... It makes it really difficult for the interpreters if we have two people talking at the same time. I'll try to give the person asking questions the chance to get through the questions, but we need to make it easy for the interpreters as well.

We're going to go into our second round of questions. The first two are for five minutes.

Ms. Rempel Garner, you're up first.

[Michelle Rempel, Conservative, Calgary Nose Hill, AB]

Thank you, Chair.

Minister, just to build on the question by my colleague from the NDP on job creation, how many jobs were created to date from the expenditures in this program?

[Jonathan Wilkinson, Liberal, North Vancouver, BC]

As I said, given the circumstances and the timing, there was no reasonable or credible way to have this information up front. That information is being collected, and it will be made public as the program proceeds.

[Michelle Rempel, Conservative, Calgary Nose Hill, AB]

So you don't know how many jobs were created.

[Jonathan Wilkinson, Liberal, North Vancouver, BC]

Well, certainly anecdotally we do. If you actually go and talk—

[Michelle Rempel, Conservative, Calgary Nose Hill, AB]

How many?

[Jonathan Wilkinson, Liberal, North Vancouver, BC]

—to some of the companies, most of them in your province, you will find that all of them are telling you that they have been able to actually maintain jobs. If you go talk to the mayor of Slave Lake or—

[Michelle Rempel, Conservative, Calgary Nose Hill, AB]

Thank you.

[Jonathan Wilkinson, Liberal, North Vancouver, BC]

—Estevan, or others, they'll all tell you the same thing.

[Michelle Rempel, Conservative, Calgary Nose Hill, AB]

Thank you.

I'm just wondering. Are you doing any calculations on the net jobs created versus jobs lost under your government's policies for this fund? Was this sort of an appeasement fund to deal with the number of job losses in Alberta over the years of your government, in the energy sector?

[Jonathan Wilkinson, Liberal, North Vancouver, BC]

As I said at the beginning, the focus of this was very much responding to the crisis that the oil and gas sector found itself in, to try to ensure that people were not losing their jobs and losing their homes during the COVID pandemic. In that regard, as well as in regard to emissions reductions, the program has succeeded.

[Michelle Rempel, Conservative, Calgary Nose Hill, AB]

Are you saying that the downturn in the energy sector is solely related to the pandemic?

[Jonathan Wilkinson, Liberal, North Vancouver, BC]

No, I am not. I am saying that this program was a response to the fact that oil prices had gone very low, and in fact they went negative for a period of time. There was enormous—

[Michelle Rempel, Conservative, Calgary Nose Hill, AB]

Do you know why the negative energy prices in Canada were so dramatic?

[Jonathan Wilkinson, Liberal, North Vancouver, BC]

I think the focus of this is probably not a broader discussion around energy policy. I'm happy to have that with you, but this is about the emissions reduction—

[Michelle Rempel, Conservative, Calgary Nose Hill, AB]

Yes, and part of that—

[Jonathan Wilkinson, Liberal, North Vancouver, BC]

This was a response to the record-low energy prices, and it was something the sector was looking for.

[Michelle Rempel, Conservative, Calgary Nose Hill, AB]

You've introduced that, so part of the reason why the prices were so depressed was that the delta that we get for Canadian energy versus world prices is higher because we are a price-taker to the Americans, because of our lack of energy infrastructure. Would you admit finally that, perhaps because your government did precious little to save the Keystone XL pipeline, that's why we were so unresilient going into the pandemic in the energy sector?

[Jonathan Wilkinson, Liberal, North Vancouver, BC]

Well, I wouldn't agree with a whole bunch of the things you said in there. First of all, the government did actually support the Keystone XL pipeline and worked very hard to try to ensure that the Americans approved that. As you know, it was stopped by President Biden.

What I would say to you—

[Michelle Rempel, Conservative, Calgary Nose Hill, AB]

Right, I was around. It is my time, Minister. I do remember being in the House. I don't think you were around at that point, when President Obama actually vetoed it and the Prime Minister did not intervene—slightly unfortunate—and then that delta became more of an issue.

So you really have no idea how many net jobs this created at all. That's what you're saying.

It's $675 million. How much of that went to CEO bonuses? Do you know?

[Jonathan Wilkinson, Liberal, North Vancouver, BC]

It had to be spent on technology implementation to reduce emissions. That was the only way that it could be spent, so none of it would have gone to CEO bonuses.

[Michelle Rempel, Conservative, Calgary Nose Hill, AB]

But to be fair, the commissioner did say that it “did not follow...accounting principles or a standard when preparing its [expected] estimates”, so how would we know that it didn't go to CEO bonuses if you can't tell me how many jobs were created and you can't tell us how much you reduced emissions by? It's kind of—

[Jonathan Wilkinson, Liberal, North Vancouver, BC]

I actually can tell you how much it reduced emissions by, and I have. I would also say that there is accounting for exactly what the project money is spent on, and I'm happy to have officials walk you through that if you would like.

[Michelle Rempel, Conservative, Calgary Nose Hill, AB]

On the emissions reduction, did you net out how much emissions were reduced because of the downturn in production during the pandemic and because of Liberal policies?