Natural Resources Committee on March 7th, 2023

[Jean-Rock Tourigny, Acting Director General, Technical Services, Real Property Services, Department of Public Works and Government Services]

Thank you, everyone.

It's my first time in front of a committee and I'm enjoying the experience, from what I've seen.

The measure is going to rely on the embodied carbon procedure established by TBS in co-operation with the National Research Council. We are going to integrate that into our project process to identify what's going to be the target and what's going to be further proposed in the design, and then we're going to measure the performance at the end compared to what was identified in the design.

As was said, we're talking about a 30% reduction in greenhouse gases and embodied carbon by 2025. We've already started applying the standard. That was issued in December by the Treasury Board Secretariat. This standard is pretty new. We're still in the implementation of it.

[Jeremy Patzer, Conservative, Cypress Hills—Grasslands, SK]

That's good to hear.

Will it be considered only before the project begins or is this going to be an ongoing process as we look at the entirety of the project, from the time it begins to maybe the time that the building is finished? I would assume that there would have to be a stamp of approval before things begin. Is it going to be through the entirety of the process or only at the beginning ?

[Jean-Rock Tourigny]

For the embodied carbon in the structural material, the structural wood, let's say, it's going to be identified at the beginning of the design, because that's where we make the decision.

Once this is established, if other opportunities would come, I suppose we'd look into them, but it's important that we identify that in the design period of the project, before we start constructing.

[Jeremy Patzer, Conservative, Cypress Hills—Grasslands, SK]

Okay.

Also, then, are you comparing the life-cycle emissions between different products, whether it be wood, steel, concrete or otherwise, and other technologies as well? I'm just trying to get a glimpse of the entire process here.

[Jean-Rock Tourigny]

We are going to compare various structural materials, that's for sure. The procedure to do that is going to be defined by Treasury Board Secretariat in co-operation with the National Research Council. We are applying the rules that have been identified by those bodies.

[Jeremy Patzer, Conservative, Cypress Hills—Grasslands, SK]

Okay. Right on. Thank you.

For either department, have either of you identified a potential impact of this bill on our softwood lumber dispute with the U.S.? I'm just wondering if there would be any potential ramifications from that or from the lack thereof.

[Gregory Smith]

Thank you. I can take that question.

What I would say is that in order to get a better sense of the potential impacts, you would need to speak to a representative from Global Affairs Canada as, in all likelihood, that is a matter that's typically dealt with by their department.

[Jeremy Patzer, Conservative, Cypress Hills—Grasslands, SK]

Okay.

My last question is this: Is it possible for there to be a negative environmental impact if more trees are harvested due to the higher demand for wood products? I understand, obviously, that by building it, you're going to store it long term, but by eliminating trees from the forests, I'm just wondering if there are any negative impacts we might be overlooking here.

[Gregory Smith]

Thank you for that.

Provincial and territorial governments are responsible for forest management and they specify an annual allowable cut from public lands. Regulating harvest levels in this way helps to ensure the sustainability over the long term, regardless of the changes in demand for wood. So the short answer to your question would be “no”.

Timber harvesting is sustainable in Canada. There are strong laws, oversight in management and the requirement for all harvested public lands to be regenerated. According to the National Forestry Database, in 2020, the sustainable wood supply in Canada was calculated at 215 million cubic metres, of which 143.1 million cubic metres were harvested. That's 66.5%, so in general I'd say no.

[Jeremy Patzer, Conservative, Cypress Hills—Grasslands, SK]

Thank you.

[The Chair, Liberal, John Aldag]

We're out of time on that one. Thank you.

We will now go to Francesco, who will have six minutes.

[Francesco Sorbara, Liberal, Vaughan—Woodbridge, ON]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Good afternoon, everyone. Thank you for being here.

Obviously this bill is well known to everyone. I was able to take a look at when Bill S-222 actually appeared before the Senate committee and the testimony that was provided there to the hon. senators, and now we're going through this in the House.

There doesn't seem to be too much disagreement in terms of moving forward with using more mass timber in our country. We are blessed with the resource and we are blessed with the know-how to do it. Frankly, some of the Scandinavian countries as well as Austria have used mass timber for many years, and I know there's a lot of assistance in terms of looking at how they've been using it for the period of time they have.

My first question is this: With regard to the number of buildings or projects that are being constructed, is there an update from the officials on the uptake in using mass timber? I'd like someone to comment on that, please.

[Stéphan Déry]

We don't have statistics industry-wide on how there's been an increase in mass timber buildings being built. I don't know if my colleague from NRCan would have these statistics.

[Gregory Smith]

Thank you very much.

[Francesco Sorbara, Liberal, Vaughan—Woodbridge, ON]

If you could give just a couple of examples of where it is being utilized, that would be great. Thank you.

[Gregory Smith]

Absolutely. I'm happy to do so, Stéphan, if you'd like.

[Stéphan Déry]

Go ahead. I have an example I could use, definitely, also.

Go ahead and I'll complete the answer after you.

[Gregory Smith]

Thank you very much.

I'll just draw from Natural Resources Canada's “The State of Mass Timber in Canada” report. For commercial, industrial and residential projects across Canada, the database indicates there are just under 300 projects that have been completed to date. This would be across Canada, in various provinces and territories.

[Francesco Sorbara, Liberal, Vaughan—Woodbridge, ON]

Please, sir, go ahead and finish.

[Stéphan Déry]

I could add to that as an example, Le Manège militaire Voltigeurs de Québec. This is one of the projects. We look at all of our projects and when mass timber is what resonates as being the best solution, that's what we use. The Voltigeurs is all constructed from wood, mass timber, and that was done also for its acoustics. There are events in that building. It replaced a building that burned down in 2009, I believe, which we completely rebuilt from the ground up using all mass timber.

I spoke earlier about 100 Sparks Street, for which mass timber is now being considered for a 12-storey building, right in downtown Ottawa.

[Francesco Sorbara, Liberal, Vaughan—Woodbridge, ON]

Thank you to both gentlemen for that answer.

The thing I do wish to put on record is that in the province of Ontario, up in York region and in the heart of the riding I represent, the folks who are building these mass timber projects are being trained at the Local 27 carpenters union training centre in the city of Vaughan. When you walk in there and go for a tour—the Prime Minister was with me less than two weeks ago at the training centre—you see mass timber there. You see trainees learning how to put it together and how to make sure that it's safe, that it's load-bearing and that it's everything we want it to be when it's utilized. Obviously, we all applaud those in the skilled trades who work hard every day to build our communities in this country. They are being trained to utilize mass timber as well.

This is my last question for this round. Will Bill S-222 overcome barriers on the federal government side in selecting wood as a building material? With the innovation that's going on with regard to mass timber and the environmental benefits, and Canada being blessed with the actual resource, much like the Scandinavian countries are, we'll also lead that. Can the officials comment on how Bill C-222 will help us move in that direction expeditiously?

If I could go to the NRCan official first, that would be great.

[Gregory Smith]

Thank you. I would just quickly note that public procurement has been used in various other countries to promote the use of mass timber in wood building and that this bill has the potential to prioritize embodied carbon considerations in building products. To the degree that wood products are preferable in some instances, that would be very beneficial.

I apologize if I'm not allowed to do this, but just to go back to your previous question, I'm now being told by officials that in actuality there are over 760 mass timber projects across Canada. I was not counting things like bridges and institutional buildings. My apologies for going back there, but I figured it was worth clarifying.

I can pass this on to my colleague.

[Francesco Sorbara, Liberal, Vaughan—Woodbridge, ON]

Thank you for that clarification. I have only 30 seconds left.

My final comment is that it's obviously great to see the federal government moving in this direction. I want to give a big thank you to the folks who drove the bus on Bill S-222, Senator Diane Griffin and MP Cannings, because our wood sector in Canada is going through a renaissance. This is part of the renaissance that we want to see for both the economy and the environment.

Thank you, Chair.

[The Chair, Liberal, John Aldag]

Great. Thank you.

I will now move to Monsieur Simard for six minutes.

[Mario Simard, Bloc, Jonquière, QC]

Thank you very much.

Mr. Déry, you gave an example earlier that I found somewhat surprising. You mentioned the Voltigeurs de Québec Armoury. I certainly hope the government has studied a wood option for this project. If people wished to preserve the building's character, I don't think incentives were required.

I do, however, know that when the Canada Revenue Agency building went up in Shawinigan, which was not so long ago, the wood option was completely disregarded.

You mentioned the minister's mandate letter.

With the exception of the bill under consideration, what concrete measures are currently in place to encourage the use of wood solutions when reviewing projects that you are pursuing?