Natural Resources Committee on May 30th, 2023

[John Williams]

I'll try to unpack that, Mr. Chairman, if I may.

Obviously, we're the people who run the business on Jackson's behalf. He would not be letting us make these commitments if he weren't absolutely comfortable that he was prepared to keep those commitments.

Now, we have this scale, and I can accept that the scale is new, versus where we were two years ago. He has purchased two very large businesses in a very highly regulated environment. Both of those businesses had a really good reputation in terms of sustainability and ESG generally. He feels, I think very strongly, that one of the reasons those businesses are of interest to him is that he wants to build that across all of his businesses.

[The Chair, Liberal, John Aldag]

Thank you. Two and a half minutes goes very quickly.

Mr. Angus, it's over to you for your two and a half minutes, please.

[Charlie Angus, NDP, Timmins—James Bay, ON]

Thank you.

There is a very interesting quote from a manager of Asia Pulp and Paper Shanghai, who spoke to the media and said it's a “fibre grab”. They want to keep the perception that Paper Excellence is an asset of Canada—for Canada and by Canada. In reality, it's a feeder for the Chinese machine.

Why would somebody from Asia Pulp & Paper make a statement like that regarding Jackson Wijaya's control of 22 million hectares of forest?

[John Williams]

Obviously, it's not for me to speculate why anybody would say anything. The truth is that there is no fibre grab. We are still very committed to serving the customers that we have. We want to develop with those customers the business. We want to invest wisely. We want strong relationships with the unions, because obviously without the people there is no business.

Quite frankly, I just can't prove a negative. I think that's where we find ourselves.

[Charlie Angus, NDP, Timmins—James Bay, ON]

Today we learned that up until at least 2020, Asia Pulp & Paper was doing analysis and doing work for the family business.

Do we have a date when Asia Pulp & Paper stopped overseeing the work of Canadian operations?

[Jean-François Guillot]

I'd like to make a correction. I would remind you that 2020 is the year the bank loan was stopped. Since 2015, the year I joined the Paper Excellence team, we have had no relationship with the Asia Pulp & Paper company.

[Charlie Angus, NDP, Timmins—James Bay, ON]

Okay, so there's no relationship. I just find it interesting, because on our corporate list, you are listed as a subsidiary of Sinar Mas.

I'm going to go back to Shanghai. We don't know whether Mr. Wijaya is there. We don't know where his office is. We're told that his office is in the Sinar Mas building there. We have an APP employee, who says:

[He] believes it crucial and urgent that people in North America—especially regulators and politicians—know more about Asia Pulp & Paper and Paper Excellence, the rapid expansion of the Wijaya family’s private business empire into the Americas, and its growing control of the pulp and paper industry and the forests that feed it.

We're talking about a man who solely owns the mills and 22 million hectares of natural resource products, and he is the man who is too busy to come and explain himself to the Canadian people.

I put to you that you are undermining questions of credibility if he won't even come and explain how his family controls this market, controls Asia Pulp & Paper, controls Sinar Mas and whether this is a fibre grab of Canadian operations to feed the Chinese machine.

[The Chair, Liberal, John Aldag]

We are out of time, but I will allow our witnesses, if they'd like, to provide a response to that statement.

[John Williams]

Very briefly, of course, we don't control 22 million hectares. We have to go and find that wood and compete with anyone else who wants to buy it, whether it be wood chips or pulpwood, so I slightly quarrel with that characterization, Mr. Chairman

Yes, Jackson had a vision, and still has a vision actually, that he could help the Canadian pulp and paper business become a sunrise business rather than the sunset business it has been for a number of years, and he's ready to invest behind that.

[The Chair, Liberal, John Aldag]

Thank you.

Our witnesses often want to know where they're at in the process.

We have five minutes left for Mr. Vidal and then five minutes on this side, and then we'll suspend and go to our second panel.

We have 10 minutes left. Thank you so much for what you've shared with us so far.

We're going to start off on this side with Mrs. Stubbs.

Mrs. Stubbs, you have five minutes.

[Shannon Stubbs, Conservative, Lakeland, AB]

Thanks, Chair.

I'm just going to take about 30 seconds, and then I'll defer to my colleague, Gary.

Thank you to the witnesses for being here and for talking about, of course, the importance of their operations and businesses in communities across the country. There are, obviously, still outstanding questions that I think require transparency.

This won't be for debate today, Chair. I just do want to put on the record that Conservatives will be moving a motion to help amplify the intent of the original motion moved by our colleague Charlie Angus. It is:

That, pursuant to the motion adopted on March 31, 2023, regarding a study into the Canadian Pulp and Paper Industry, Minister Francois-Philippe Champagne, Minister of Innovation, Science and Industry, appear for one hour alongside appropriate officials to discuss the ownership structure and business relations of Paper Excellence Corporation, and that the Chair schedule this meeting at the earliest possible opportunity.

This was, of course, also the request in the original motion from our colleague.

[The Chair, Liberal, John Aldag]

We did invite the minister to attend. His schedule did not permit him to be here within the time frame. We invited. He was unavailable. That's where we're at.

[Shannon Stubbs, Conservative, Lakeland, AB]

Okay. We should perhaps debate this later. It seems quite obvious that he should make himself available.

Thanks, Chair.

[Gary Vidal, Conservative, Desnethé—Missinippi—Churchill River, SK]

Thank you.

I want to pick up on this idea that Paper Excellence somehow controls 22 million hectares of forested land in Canada. This has been an ongoing discussion by the member from Timmins—James Bay. It's been in a number of media reports, starting back in March.

I would suggest that this statement is incorrect at best and potentially misleading at worst. This is the reason I would say that. For example, in Saskatchewan the Minister of Environment uses several different forms of licensing before the right to harvest Crown timber is granted to anyone. This both secures benefits and ensures sustainable practices are maintained by the companies. In Saskatchewan, for example, there's a forest management agreement. There's an area-based or volume-based term supply licence. There's an annual commercial forest product permit. These are all different methodologies of granting that permission to harvest Crown timber.

What these all have in common is that they require both forest management plans and indigenous consultation. From the Saskatchewan government report, it says:

Since forest management agreements provide the greatest assurance of sustainable forest management—requiring forest management plans, which are equivalent to environmental impact assessments, plus renewal obligations—the long-term goal is to have all timber supply areas covered by forest management agreements.

In addition to that, we talked a little bit about northwestern Saskatchewan already. It's my understanding that your company and the Meadow Lake Tribal Council are fifty-fifty partners in a forest management company called Mistik Management Limited. Through Mistik Management Limited, it controls the timber supply for both your pulp mill and the lumber mill called NorSask Forest Products, which, by the way, is a 100% first nations-owned sawmill in my community of Meadow Lake.

I want to give you an opportunity to just talk a little bit about the regulatory processes in Canada, and how they provide checks and balances to protect our timber resources. I also want you to add on the end of that, if you have time, to explain how the indigenous consultation and/or direct involvement supports these practices.

[Lana Wilhelm]

That is a lot to unpack there. I am a professional forester. I could go on at length and all of the signs would come up, so I won't do that.

I would say that for Saskatchewan the member is 100% correct. As a forester I am really proud that we have one of the most heavily regulated industries out there. There are hundreds if not thousands of foresters, biologists, traditional knowledge keepers, trappers and people out on the land who are making sure that we have that tightly regulated forest, as we should have. This is a renewable resource. It's in our best interest, as a pulp and paper company, to renew that resource in a sustainable way.

I would leave it at that, unless any of my colleagues would have anything to add to that. I think, again, our work with indigenous partners has been nothing short of important, and not only for social licence because it's the right thing to do. It also has made really good business for everyone at the table.

[Randy Hoback, Conservative, Prince Albert, SK]

In Prince Albert, again, we're pretty excited. We see so much potential. There are actually two new skating rinks being built and a swimming pool. There's a new hospital now being built. There's all that because the pulp and paper sector, the forestry sector, is returning to Prince Albert. We're seeing huge investments in the city of PA.

We're not the only ones excited about that. The member for Cowichan—Malahat—Langford toured your mill in Crofton. He's pretty excited about the 500 jobs he has there. I just want you to know there are lots of people in Parliament and lots of people in Canada cheering you on.

Having said that, there are processes you have to follow. There are rules you have to follow. These are a part of the process. I appreciate you're doing that. We look forward to seeing your business grow and expand in the Prince Albert area, for sure.

Thank you.

[The Chair, Liberal, John Aldag]

Thank you, Mr. Hoback.

We're going to go to Mr. Blois.

I understand you have a quick point that you'd like to raise.

[Kody Blois, Liberal, Kings—Hants, NS]

Just before you start the clock, we do have Ms. May here, and I know that the party is not recognized in terms of having 12 seats. I have a number of questions I'd like to be able to ask for all five minutes of time, but I don't want to preclude Ms. May. I know that she might have a question or two.

I'm wondering if there's a consensus on this committee to give her even a two and a half minute slot. I need to know whether that's possible before I start my time.

Is that okay?

[The Chair, Liberal, John Aldag]

We would need unanimous consent to do that.

[Charlie Angus, NDP, Timmins—James Bay, ON]

To clarify, will we have another round?

[The Chair, Liberal, John Aldag]

No. The intention is that, once we finish this last slot, if the two and a half minutes are approved by the committee, we'll suspend. We'll bring in the second panel, and at that point, I'll be looking for advice from the committee whether we want....

We were late starting today. We did not get going until 4:13, so we were 45 minutes late starting. We have resources available until six o'clock. It will be likely almost 5:30 before we can get to the second panel. Do we want to bring in the second panel or go until six o'clock? That's the direction I'm going to look for.

[Charlie Angus, NDP, Timmins—James Bay, ON]

I'm sorry. My only question is.... I'm looking for goodwill from my colleagues. I don't want to have this second panel and then not ask them questions. They came all the way here to be heard, as our first panel did. I want to make sure that our first panel is heard and that we at least get a full round with our second panel.

[The Chair, Liberal, John Aldag]

If we go until six o'clock, as long as we have resources, we will get the first six-minute round with them, for sure.

[Kody Blois, Liberal, Kings—Hants, NS]

Just so I'm clear, Mr. Chair, Ms. May will have—

[The Chair, Liberal, John Aldag]

It's five minutes to you, and then we'll give two and a half minutes to Ms. May. Then we'll suspend.