Natural Resources Committee on June 2nd, 2023

[DeNeige Dojack]

I said, as part of an application, that we receive information on an ownership structure pro forma for all investments. We're given information on the ultimate controller. Then it is very common that investments are held through a series of holding companies, subsidiaries, and so we get that information. Similarly, when we get information on the ultimate controller, if there are reasons to believe there would be influence, we clarify other places. For example, we consider something to be, generally speaking, controlled by somebody if they have a third of the equity in the company.

[Mario Simard, Bloc, Jonquière, QC]

My question will be simpler than that.

I want to know one thing. If you did a security analysis, I guess somebody wondered if there was a connection between Jackson Wijaya and Asia Pulp & Paper. That was the first thought we had at the committee. I understand that you are not allowed to disclose this, but I assume that, in the department, someone decided to check whether there was a link between Jackson Wijaya and Asia Pulp & Paper. I assume you did that in the security analysis.

You say that the department cannot disclose that information, but I assume that the minister has it in his hands and that he does not make decisions blindly. That's what I want to know.

Do you have in your possession a document that refutes or affirms the existence of a link between Jackson Wijaya and Asia Pulp & Paper? That's the only thing I want to know.

[Mark Schaan]

I cannot confirm or deny the existence of a particular document. I can say that in every transaction we understand the ownership structure as well as the relative financial positions of the companies that are making investments through the Investment Canada Act.

I think it would be speculation for us to comment on whether or not a particular affirmation document exists in this case. I think it's important to note that—

[Mario Simard, Bloc, Jonquière, QC]

I understand—

[Mark Schaan]

—all of that is subject to the—

[Mario Simard, Bloc, Jonquière, QC]

I understand that it is difficult for you to give a clear answer to that question.

Last November, the Minister of Innovation, Science and Industry, Mr. Champagne, announced that he had conducted an analysis of certain firms involved in critical minerals. If I'm not mistaken, it was a matter of indirect transactions. He asked Sinomine Rare Metals Resources Co., Chengze Lithium International Limited and Zangge Mining Investment Co. Ltd. to divest themselves of their involvement in critical minerals.

[The Chair, Liberal, John Aldag]

Your time has finished. We'll have to leave that one—we're half a minute over. Mr. Simard will have another round that he can come back to.

We're going now to Mr. Angus.

The floor is yours for six minutes.

[Charlie Angus, NDP, Timmins—James Bay, ON]

Thank you very much, Chair.

I have only six minutes, and I certainly don't want to be rude. I'm not really interested in theoreticals; I'm interested only in direct answers on what we're looking at.

When I look at the Investment Canada webpage, I see that it's wonderful. It reassures Canadians that you guys are there to review significant investments in Canada by non-Canadians. When we're looking at the control of 22 million hectares of Canadian forest, apparently by an individual, Jackson Wijaya, I'm to understand, from what you're saying, that you did not do that review, because of the WTO. Is that correct?

[Mark Schaan]

A net benefit review on this transaction was not conducted.

[Charlie Angus, NDP, Timmins—James Bay, ON]

Yes, a net benefit review.... Would you at least tell us if the WTO member you're protecting is based in China?

[Mark Schaan]

The WTO relates to the nature of the firm—

[Charlie Angus, NDP, Timmins—James Bay, ON]

Is the firm based in China?

[Mark Schaan]

Paper Excellence Group, which is the holding company, is a Dutch firm. It's a Dutch holding company.

[Charlie Angus, NDP, Timmins—James Bay, ON]

You have the documents on who the ultimate controller is, so did you not check? Do you know who the ultimate controller is?

[Mark Schaan]

Yes.

[Charlie Angus, NDP, Timmins—James Bay, ON]

Is it in China?

[Mark Schaan]

The ultimate controller is Mr. Jackson Wijaya.

[Charlie Angus, NDP, Timmins—James Bay, ON]

Oh, I see. Okay.

Well, it's interesting, because when Premier McNeil of Nova Scotia went to deal about Northern Pulp, he flew to the Sinar Mas offices in Shanghai, because that's where the premier needed to meet to find out about Paper Excellence. They worked for Sinar Mas. Did you confirm that Sinar Mas in the Shanghai office is the ultimate controller of Paper Excellence? Did you do that review?

[Mark Schaan]

I can confirm that investments under the Investment Canada Act require us to understand the beneficial owner and the ultimate controller of the firm.

[Charlie Angus, NDP, Timmins—James Bay, ON]

Okay. Will you tell us, is the ultimate controller Sinar Mas?

[Mark Schaan]

The ultimate controller is Mr. Jackson Wijaya Limantara.

[Charlie Angus, NDP, Timmins—James Bay, ON]

I see. Okay.

I have a briefing note here from the Nova Scotia government that tells me that what you're telling me is not true. The Nova Scotia government internal document says that Paper Excellence is ultimately controlled by Asia Pulp & Paper, an integrated pulp and paper company division of Sinar Mas.

Are you saying that Asia Pulp & Paper is not in control of Paper Excellence and then up through that to Sinar Mas? Will you turn over the filings they do, their mandatory regulatory filings, so that we know what you know?

[Mark Schaan]

I'm not in a position to disclose that information. That is subject to the confidentiality provisions of the Investment Canada Act.

[Charlie Angus, NDP, Timmins—James Bay, ON]

Okay. If our committee requested it firmly, I think this would be in the Canadian interest, but I'll continue.

I have an email addressed to Jackson.Wijaya@asiapulpandpaper regarding theft of Canadian intellectual property. Did you do any investigation into whether Asia Pulp & Paper is involved with Jackson Wijaya and allegations of theft of Canadian IP?

[Mark Schaan]

I can simply confirm that a national security review of this transaction was conducted—