Natural Resources Committee on June 6th, 2023

[The Chair, Liberal, John Aldag]

I call this meeting to order.

Good afternoon, colleagues. Welcome to meeting number 67 of the House of Commons Standing Committee on Natural Resources. Pursuant to Standing Order 108(2), the committee is meeting on the Canadian pulp and paper industry study.

During the second panel, we'll be going in camera to have a discussion on this study and to continue with the draft report on the study of creating a fair and equitable Canadian energy transformation.

I would like to welcome back our guests. One of our panellists had to withdraw this morning. One is having some technical problems and is getting in right now.

[A voice]

He's here now.

[The Chair, Liberal, John Aldag]

Okay.

It sounds like everybody is here who is going to be able to join us, so let's jump right into it. We had opening statements last Tuesday, so I thought we could do one six-minute round for each of the parties and then see where we are at that point.

There may be bells at some point this afternoon. We'll see if we're interrupted or not. If that happens, we'll have to suspend and do the vote. We'll see if our witnesses are able to come back.

Mr. Angus, before we start, do you have something that you need to raise? Otherwise, we'll get right into the questions. I'd ask that we hold any business until after we deal with the witnesses.

Go ahead, Mr. Angus.

[Charlie Angus, NDP, Timmins—James Bay, ON]

Chair, I absolutely share your sense of urgency in getting stuff done. I just wanted to ask something while we're in public.

We had talked about a motion to summons Mr. Wijaya to appear. Has that summons been sent? Can you just update us on where we're at with that process?

[The Chair, Liberal, John Aldag]

Okay. I'll be brief.

Before we went to the full summons, we wanted to reissue a letter of invitation. That was sent. We are in negotiations right now with his office, trying to find a time for him to appear. It does not appear that he will be in Canada before the end of June. I will bring that forward to the committee to look at their wishes. After we're done with these witnesses, we'll have a discussion about the next steps. Mr. Wijaya has expressed a willingness to come and testify before the committee. It just won't be before this session ends. That's the dilemma we're going to have.

The invitation to the minister has also been issued. We have not had a response to that yet. We've given all available dates that we would be meeting. We're waiting for a response on the minister's invitation as well.

We can continue that conversation, but first, Mr. Hoback, welcome back to the committee. You're up. If you're ready to go, you have six minutes on the clock.

[Randy Hoback, Conservative, Prince Albert, SK]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

I'll start off with you, Mr. Vaillancourt.

I'm just kind of curious. In Quebec, at the time Paper Excellence took on Resolute Forest Products, were there any concerns with the union in the sector? Were there any issues there that were highlighted and that would have gone to the Competition Bureau or to any agency to say that this shouldn't go forward?

Chair, I don't know if he's hearing me.

[The Chair, Liberal, John Aldag]

I'll stop the clock for you.

Colleagues, we'll have to suspend for a moment and do a sound check. There's obviously a connection issue with Mr. Vaillancourt.

We're okay.

Mr. Hoback, we'll restart the clock at six minutes. If you want, you can repeat your question from the top. I'm feeling very generous today. The six minutes are yours.

[Randy Hoback, Conservative, Prince Albert, SK]

Mr. Vaillancourt, I just want to make sure you can hear me. Put your hand up if you're getting translation.

[Gilles Vaillancourt, Union Representative, Fédération de l'industrie manufacturière]

Yes, I hear it.

[Randy Hoback, Conservative, Prince Albert, SK]

Perfect.

I'm just curious. At the time Paper Excellence purchased Resolute Forest Products, did you or your association have any concerns? Did you raise any concerns to the Competition Bureau? If so, what were those concerns?

[Gilles Vaillancourt]

I didn't appeal directly to the Competition Bureau. It's not an option I considered.

However, there have always been concerns, particularly about woodland caribou and the loss of logging rights. We're worried about running out of raw materials to continue our operations. We are anxious to obtain answers to these questions.

We're also wondering about the intentions of our new owners. Will the sawmills continue to operate as they do now? What will happen to our hydroelectric dams? So we have a lot of concerns.

[Randy Hoback, Conservative, Prince Albert, SK]

Those are awesome concerns. I agree with you about those concerns.

However, as far as the forestry, the resource itself, that's administered by the province. Is it not? Whether you have the resource there to cut or not isn't necessarily decided by the federal government. It will be the province that's negotiated with Paper Excellence—or, in this case, Resolute Forest Products—that will basically lease that land out to them to harvest. Is that correct?

[Gilles Vaillancourt]

You're right, but we mustn't forget that the federal government threatened to impose a moratorium on all our logging territories if the provincial government didn't take care of it. This has worried the workers. We're wondering if we're going to have the right to go back into the forest to harvest timber.

[Randy Hoback, Conservative, Prince Albert, SK]

There's more concern about being shut down because of federal regulations than about who the owner is or what the ownership structure is. Is that what you're saying to me?

[Gilles Vaillancourt]

At heart, all these aspects contribute to fuelling our concerns. We're wondering whether we'll be able to continue to go and cut wood in the forest.

It's not that we're unhappy about being bought by another company. What worries us is the fact that we don't know its real intentions regarding what it's going to do about us and with the paper mills. Did they buy us just to exploit kraft pulp, or do they intend to continue making paper and lumber? Will this company continue to operate in the typical sectors in which Resolute used to operate? These are questions to which we currently have no answers.

[Randy Hoback, Conservative, Prince Albert, SK]

Yes. Those are hard questions, and I can't answer those for you. I think those are things that we can talk about.

There is one thing I will say, though, Mr. Moffatt. You talked about Asia Pulp & Paper and its logging practices in Indonesia. I guess I'm just a little concerned. Why would you think Indonesian regulations would apply here in Canada? Why would you think that would be something that we should be concerned about?

In Saskatchewan, it is the provincial government, along with first nations and along with the corporation—in this case, Paper Excellence—that actually put together the reforestation plan and that does the harvesting plan. How do you take and square that hole, saying that we should look at what they did in Indonesia, which has totally different rules?

I'm not saying, by any means, that they did the right thing. However, I am saying that, if you think that's going to happen here in Canada, you had better be dreaming because it's never going to happen here in Canada. Why would you even draw that into the equation at this point in time? You know it's not a reality here in Canada.

[Shane Moffatt, Head of Nature and Food Campaign, Greenpeace Canada]

I think what's really relevant to take into account is the track record of Asia Pulp & Paper. I think it was very helpful to see the media reporting this week—

[Randy Hoback, Conservative, Prince Albert, SK]

That's the problem. You're looking at a track record with a different administration and a different government. This is the Canadian government. This is the provincial Government of Saskatchewan. I don't care what their track record is. The rules are the rules that you have in Saskatchewan. The harvesting is the harvesting process. The reforesting is the reforesting process. That's done on behalf of the people of Canada and people of Saskatchewan.

I really don't care. If Paper Excellence is breaking the law, I expect somebody to come down on it hard and make sure that's corrected. Do we not have the proper laws in place, federally and provincially, to make sure that we have the proper harvesting practices in play, as well as the proper reforestation in play? I don't want to be like Mr. Vaillancourt, 20 years from now wondering if I have wood to cut. I want to make sure that the resource is properly harvested and taken care of.

In your study, are you concerned with Canadian laws? Is that your issue? Any company, whether it's Domtar, Paper Excellence or Weyerhaeuser, is going to follow the laws of Canada.

[Shane Moffatt]

In terms of the connections between Asia Pulp & Paper and Paper Excellence, the media reporting this week has been very helpful in pointing out that the government in Nova Scotia saw that Asia Pulp & Paper—in their words, actually—controlled Paper Excellence. I think it's very important to think about the track record of this company in other places around the world where it's operated.

In terms of your question around the quality of Canadian regulations, I think it's a really important question that you're asking. In particular, this government has said that Paper Excellence will comply with all relevant Canadian laws. However, what we have seen in a lot of the academic literature and in the state of some of the forests across Canada is that a number of those laws aren't up to snuff.

[Randy Hoback, Conservative, Prince Albert, SK]

That should be changed, you bet. If they're not following the law, I agree. They should be enforced to the nth degree.

I guess I'm just kind—

[The Chair, Liberal, John Aldag]

We're out of time. That's the six minutes.

[Randy Hoback, Conservative, Prince Albert, SK]

—of concerned that you're taking the media as your source.

[The Chair, Liberal, John Aldag]

Okay.

Next up we have Mr. Blois, who will have six minutes on the clock.

[Kody Blois, Liberal, Kings—Hants, NS]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Obviously, we're sitting here in Ottawa today, and a lot of the focus, rightfully so, of this conversation thus far has been on Paper Excellence. The dynamic here is more broadly about the pulp and paper industry in Canada.

We're sitting here in our nation's capital. Today, of course, there is major smog—or I'll call it smoke—over the city in terms of the forest fires that are happening across the country. My understanding is that more than tenfold of what normally would burn in terms of forests in a given year has already burned in this wildfire season.

My questions are for Mr. Vaillancourt because I know that some of the fires have been particularly bad in Quebec. I'm wondering about the concern from the manufacturers association in terms of the actual supply of wood into different forestry practices, including pulp and paper. Can he speak about his association's concerns? I presume it's a concern about access to wood, particularly where a number of our forests are being burned, presumably some that would play into his sector.

[Gilles Vaillancourt]

Given the raging forest fires, we certainly have concerns about future supply.

There are surely parts of these forests that were due to be harvested in two, three, four or five years' time. They will no longer exist once the fires have been brought under control. We could then go and get the wood that is still usable, but it has to be done very quickly, because the material degrades very quickly.

There are a lot of fires burning right now in Quebec. This creates concern about what we'll be able to use in two, three or four years.