Natural Resources Committee on June 6th, 2023

[Kody Blois, Liberal, Kings—Hants, NS]

I assume that the majority of the feedstock that actually goes into your manufacturers as part of your association and your group comes from Quebec and that there's not necessarily feedstock coming from outside. Is it fair to say that the majority of what goes into your plant is actually provincially cut and harvested and goes into your process?

[Gilles Vaillancourt]

Yes, it's wood cut from our forests that we turn into boards or lumber. We use lumber scraps to make chips, with which we make paper and pulp. So it's still processing. The primary and secondary transformation is done in Quebec.

[Kody Blois, Liberal, Kings—Hants, NS]

I want to ask you just one more question, Mr. Vaillancourt, and then I'll go to Mr. Moffatt.

Obviously, the focus is on pulp and paper, and that's an important by-product. As we talk about the circular economy and about some of the different opportunities we have in the country, I have sawmills in Nova Scotia, for example, that are looking increasingly to the idea of mass timber as a primary product. That also plays into conversations around wood vinegar products and renewable diesel.

Can you give a bit of testimony to this committee on the work that you think has to happen, either in Quebec or, indeed, across the country, to expand those types of products—like pulp and paper but others—that can be used to make sure the entire log or the entire tree is being used to the extent that's possible?

[Gilles Vaillancourt]

Yes, I can most certainly talk to you about it.

At our Kenogami mill, we have a project related to the manufacture of cellulose pulp from fibrous material, this product being of better quality. Projects involving the use of forest biomass are being carried out in Quebec to recover what could be considered as waste material in order to transform it into fuel.

There are currently plenty of innovative ideas in this field that should be highlighted in order to bring them to the fore.

[Kody Blois, Liberal, Kings—Hants, NS]

Thank you very much.

I'll turn to Mr. Moffatt.

Obviously, this would be a concern for your organization, which is focused on environmental outcomes. Do you have any thoughts or is there any position that Greenpeace has in relation to forestry practices so that we can try to reduce the likelihood of fires?

I know that's not always possible, but whether it's increased silviculture or increased targeting harvests, particularly after major weather events.... I think about Nova Scotia, for example. We just had hurricane Fiona. There are hundreds of thousands of downed trees within the forests. In your organization's view, what can be done or what should be done to try to mitigate this in a way that supports the forestry sector but also maybe reduces the risk of major forest fires moving forward?

[Shane Moffatt]

Thanks for the question.

I think two big things need to happen.

First and foremost, this government needs to get emissions under control. Amongst G7 nations, this government has done a very poor job in reducing our national greenhouse gas emissions, and the science is very clear that without reducing emissions these wildfires are just going to continue to grow year on year.

I think the other thing that we really need to see happen is to be restoring indigenous governance to the forests. You'll be aware, as will many of your colleagues, the industrialization of many of these forests has severely harmed their resilience in the face of climate change and extreme weather events.

What I would say is that, in addition to massively reducing the emissions that continue grow in this country, we need to be restoring indigenous governance to the forests so that the fire prevention measures, measures that many nations across the country have conducted here since time immemorial and which colonialism actually disrupted, can be put back in place on the land, so that indigenous guardianship can play an important part in building a more fire-resilient future for the country.

[The Chair, Liberal, John Aldag]

Thank you. We're out of time on that one.

We're now going to go to Mr. Simard for six minutes.

[Mario Simard, Bloc, Jonquière, QC]

Thank you very much, Mr. Chair.

Mr. Vaillancourt, for the benefit of the committee, I would like to say that we have set up a monitoring committee with the various unions involved with regard to Resolute Forest Products and that we will be meeting with company representatives next Monday.

We will produce a report following this study, and I would like you to tell us about the contentious points you intend to raise next Monday at the meeting with the new owners. That way, perhaps we can take them into account in our report.

Could you tell the committee what you intend to address at next Monday's meeting?

[Gilles Vaillancourt]

All right.

One area of great concern for active workers, and even more so for retirees, is the issue of pension funds. People are wondering whether Paper Excellence will continue to recognize them, because they're loss-making funds and there's no more money coming in. We have to take into account the fact that retirees contribute a great deal to the region's economy.

We also wonder about Paper Excellence's vision. Will it be different from ours? Does the company intend to keep the forestry market as we've always known it within Resolute, i.e., timber harvesting as well as pulp and paper manufacturing? Did the company buy us out just to make kraft pulp? What do they want to do about our hydroelectric dams?

It's all about how the company sees things for Quebec after the Resolute purchase. We're very concerned about that.

[Mario Simard, Bloc, Jonquière, QC]

Excellent, thank you.

Earlier, my colleague Mr. Blois talked a bit about the challenge of supply due to forest fires. I know that one of Resolute's challenges is the softwood lumber dispute with the United States. According to the latest figures we received, $583 million from Resolute Forest Products was being held back because of this dispute.

Do you feel these repercussions, given the lack of investment in facilities?

[Gilles Vaillancourt]

Yes, we feel them. It's embarrassing to say to what extent, because we don't have the real numbers. We have the data they want to give us. We certainly don't have the funds. They're being held in trust, so we can't invest in our current processes.

[Mario Simard, Bloc, Jonquière, QC]

Excellent, thank you.

I'd like to talk to you about another subject. Earlier, you talked about the concern over the federal government's threat to issue a decree in relation to the woodland caribou issue. We know that Quebec's plan will be tabled soon, within the next few weeks, since it's due in June.

I don't want to put words in your mouth, but, if I understand you correctly, for all the unions in the forestry sector, applying the decree is an unacceptable solution.

Is that correct?

[Gilles Vaillancourt]

Yes, that is indeed the case.

The application of the decree translates, for us, into a loss of supply of raw materials. At the end of the day, this means that it's the workers who will be out of work, because we won't have anything left to process. The forestry industry provides the most jobs in the region. If we take it away, we'll become a ghost region.

[Mario Simard, Bloc, Jonquière, QC]

Thank you very much.

I'd like to ask Mr. Moffatt a quick question.

Mr. Moffatt, you mentioned the highly questionable practices of Asia Pulp and Paper. When you did an analysis of the issue, did you draw up a comparative statement regarding the different forestry regimes?

Quebec's forestry regime is different from that of Ontario or Alberta. If we want to analyze the impact of the arrival of a new player like Asia Pulp and Paper, which would run Paper Excellence, we might have to study it in terms of the different forestry regimes.

Have you done an analysis taking into account the different forestry regimes?

[The Chair, Liberal, John Aldag]

I'm going to pause the clock here. The bells have just started. A vote has been called. In my understanding, they are 30-minute bells. Then we'll have 10 minutes to vote and 10 minutes to come back. It's going to be 50 minutes.

I need to ask our witnesses if they are prepared to stay and perhaps come back. The other option would be for us to continue. Mr. Simard has a minute and 25 seconds left on the clock, and Mr. Angus would have six minutes. We can also release our witnesses and then, when we return, we'll come back in camera to continue with our report.

I turn to the will of the committee. I do need unanimous consent to continue. I want everybody to have their fair turn.

Charlie, I'll go to you quickly for your input.

[Charlie Angus, NDP, Timmins—James Bay, ON]

Thank you.

We have a lot of work to do. I'm asking for the goodwill of my colleagues. I made sure that they had an opportunity to speak. If we finish off this first round, we can shut it down and then go in camera.

I'm sure we'll be all very collegial when we go in camera, but I would like my opportunity to finish my round of questioning.

[The Chair, Liberal, John Aldag]

Do we have unanimous consent to finish off the seven and a half minutes?

[Randy Hoback, Conservative, Prince Albert, SK]

Do we need unanimous consent?

[The Chair, Liberal, John Aldag]

Yes. To go through bells, we can't continue without full agreement from the committee.

[An hon. member]

No.

[The Chair, Liberal, John Aldag]

We don't have unanimous consent, so we will have to suspend the meeting at this point.

I'll get the clerk to check with our two witnesses.

Thank you so much for coming back this second time. If you are still available in 40 minutes, we have seven and a half minutes of time that we would need from you. If you're unavailable, that is completely your call.

I'll thank you now for being so flexible in providing your testimony. When we're back in 40 minutes, we'll check to see whether you're here.

In the meantime, I need to suspend the meeting. We'll see everybody afterwards.

[The Chair, Liberal, John Aldag]

Welcome back, members.

Thank you to our witnesses. I didn't mention you specifically, but we have Gilles Vaillancourt and Shane Moffatt. I really appreciate your patience over this last week and these interruptions today.

We left off with Mr. Simard having a minute and a half on the clock. He did have a question that had been put out there just before we ended. He can paraphrase it, and then I'll start the clock for him. Then we'll go to Mr. Angus for his six minutes. Then we'll suspend and go in camera.

Monsieur Simard, I'll let you start your question. When you're done, I will start the clock.

[Mario Simard, Bloc, Jonquière, QC]

Thank you very much, Mr. Chair.

Mr. Moffatt, earlier we were talking about Asia Pulp and Paper's questionable practices. In connection with your presentation to the committee last week, I was wondering whether, in your research and analysis, you took into account the fact that there are different forestry regimes in Canada, including the Quebec forestry regime. These forestry regimes often come with standards, which are quite strict.

Have you done an analysis looking at the different forestry regimes?

[Shane Moffatt]

I've been looking at Paper Excellence's takeover of the logging sector in Canada for over a decade now. As part of that work, I've been looking at their operations in a number of different provinces within Canada and jurisdictions outside of Canada. As part of that, I've certainly done a number of analyses of the provincial logging regimes in Ontario, Quebec and British Columbia in particular.

The purpose of the report that we put out in the fall was to ensure that the Canadian public and our elected officials have as much information as possible so that we can make the most informed choice about this company's next step and its future in Canada.

[Mario Simard, Bloc, Jonquière, QC]

I understand very well, but you'll agree with me that Paper Excellence, like any other forestry company, can't do whatever it wants in the forest. The way cutting rights are allocated in Quebec means that companies have to meet certain standards. I know that certain territories are associated with certain mills and activities.

Do you agree with me that Paper Excellence can't do whatever it wants in the forests of Canada and Quebec?