Natural Resources Committee on June 13th, 2023

[The Chair, Liberal, John Aldag]

We're out of time.

[Kody Blois, Liberal, Kings—Hants, NS]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Could we have the price of the tax, as well?

[Derek Hermanutz]

I'd be happy to share that with the committee

[The Chair, Liberal, John Aldag]

If we could receive that through the clerk, that would be useful.

[Derek Hermanutz]

I'd be happy to share that with the committee.

[The Chair, Liberal, John Aldag]

Thank you.

We're going next to Mr. Simard.

Over to you, Mr. Simard, for six minutes.

[Mario Simard, Bloc, Jonquière, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Mr. Hargrove, according to a Natural Resources Canada document on the state of Canada's forests, between 500 and 600 million trees were planted annually on public lands over a period of 10 years, specifically from 2010 to 2020. If I do some quick math, that works out to 5.5 billion trees planted over 10 years, probably largely by industry. That means it is achievable and it is possible to plant two billion trees per year.

The government may have gone about this the wrong way, unfortunately. I say that because of the commissioner of the environment and sustainable development's report, of course, but also because I have the feeling that you didn't seek out the expertise you needed to successfully plant two billion trees.

From the get-go, I had the feeling that this was more about having a political slogan than following through on a genuine desire, because I started talking to people about it in 2020. My colleague Paul Lefebvre was here then. I met with people. If there's anywhere that the forestry sector is important, it's definitely Quebec, especially my region. I met with people with the kind of expertise this program calls for, people who wanted to assist the department. That was in 2020. Those people got a call from you four or five weeks ago. From 2020 up to four or five weeks ago, people with the expertise necessary to plant two billion trees never heard from you even though they tried reaching out to build a network. Why did it take so long?

[Glenn Hargrove]

First of all, I'd say that we have consulted a range of experts. We also have deep expertise within the department. We're a science-based organization. For all of the projects, we have an expert panel that includes internal and external experts. We look for a range of expertise so that this expertise can be brought to bear on the projects.

With regard to the earlier part of your question around the number of trees that are planted in Canada, it's true that two billion trees over a decade is about a 40% increase. That means a significant ramp-up in the supply chain—

[Mario Simard, Bloc, Jonquière, QC]

I understand. You said that earlier. Forgive me for cutting you off, Mr. Hargrove, but I don't have a lot of time.

Would you agree to provide to the committee the list of experts you consulted with for the two billion trees program? I'm talking about the people whom you felt had the necessary expertise and with whom you worked. The expertise I am talking about comes from a university research chair.

Would you agree to provide the committee with the list of agents to whom you delegated the planting of the two billion trees? I find it odd that you didn't sign agreements with the provinces for all that tree planting. That's a pretty big problem if you are trying to achieve the target since you have to go through the provinces.

I never saw any plans as to the types of trees recommended. Are you going with wind breaks? Are you doing reforestation? Are you doing afforestation? I never saw any plans from the department. There seems to be a lot of improvising going on.

Can you tell us when the strategy to plant the two billion trees was actually implemented? I want to know how long after the government made the commitment in 2019 that the first trees were planted. What was the rationale behind your approach? Who did you consult with? Would you be able to provide us with those departmental documents?

[Glenn Hargrove]

Certainly. I'd be very happy to provide a document that lays out the planning and also a list of experts whom we've consulted through the expert panels and through our advisory committee.

[Mario Simard, Bloc, Jonquière, QC]

To your knowledge, did you consult with experts from every province? You're indicating that you did. That's great.

In his report, the commissioner states that in order to reach the target and plant two billion trees, you need to make significant changes. Otherwise, it's unlikely that the program will succeed. Can you tell me whether you have put any measures in place to address that point since the report came out?

[Glenn Hargrove]

In the commissioner's report, and to be fair, the report looked at a slice in time early on in a program that is a 10-year program, a lot of what the commissioner was talking about was in terms of ramping up efforts. As the commissioner mentioned, since the time and scope of his report, we now have seven agreements in principle with the provinces and territories. We have six contribution agreements with them.

We're now up to over 260 million trees committed in agreements or under negotiation. There have been a lot of efforts. We've really focused on making sure that we are working with the right people, that we are taking the right steps to set the program up for long-term success.

[Mario Simard, Bloc, Jonquière, QC]

I'd like to conclude on this.

[The Chair, Liberal, John Aldag]

We're finished now. We're out of time.

We're going to Mr. Angus for his final six minutes.

[Charlie Angus, NDP, Timmins—James Bay, ON]

Thank you, Chair.

My frustration is that the planet is on fire, and yet the environment commissioner gives us a report that says that the list of failures grows longer, yet again. We can’t continue to go from failure to failure. We need action and results, not just more targets and plans.

Mr. Moffet, it's a long list of devastating failures on the part of the government to address the climate catastrophe that's unfolding.

How do you explain the 399 progress reports that Environment and Climate Change Canada was required to produce? It only completed one. Is this not that important, or do you not have the resources to get this work done?

[John Moffet]

I apologize. I'm not sure what 399 reports you're referring to.

[Charlie Angus, NDP, Timmins—James Bay, ON]

He said, “Of the 399 progress reports that Environment and Climate Change Canada was required to produce, it had completed only 1.” Are you not aware of that?

[John Moffet]

I think he was referring to reports that he expected with respect to the methane equivalency agreements, which would not be 399. He was expecting us to produce one per year, and we produced one so far over the three years that the agreements have been in place.

[Charlie Angus, NDP, Timmins—James Bay, ON]

Okay. That's not how I read it, but we'll carry on.

He says that regulations are an important way of achieving Canada's emission reduction targets. However, without comprehensive impact information, the government simply doesn't know whether it's using the right tools or not.

How are we to tell the Canadian public not to worry, that in the midst of this climate catastrophe that's unfolding, the government is on track to meet its reduction targets for 2030?

Is that just performative? Is that just going to be a good Instagram quote, or do you actually have the tools to tell the government whether or not you're going to get there?

[John Moffet]

There are a couple of answers to that.

First, we do attempt to project the impact of each regulation that we develop. We also report on overall emissions from the economy, which are a result of a variety of inputs. The country has, for the first time, reduced its total emissions. The best place for Canadians to look at that is at the emissions reduction plan that was produced last year, and then to hold the government accountable for implementing all of the measures in that plan, and to have the government report on an annual basis whether our emissions are going up or down. The emissions are finally starting to trend in the right direction.

[Charlie Angus, NDP, Timmins—James Bay, ON]

Well, certainly COVID helped. We're not sure if your emissions plan helped.

What he's saying is that you don't actually know if you're using the right tools. This is a hope and a prayer, which is not going to help our planet as it burns.

I do want to ask this, being that Canada is the only G7 country where emissions have risen and have been much more off track with the rest of the G7. We know that the government meets regularly with big oil. We're seeing reports that Suncor helped write the first draft of the government carbon emissions plan.

Isn't that like putting Dracula in charge of the blood bank?

[John Moffet]

I'm not aware of oil and gas sector officials writing our plan. Certainly none have contributed to drafting a single word of any regulation for which I'm responsible.

[Charlie Angus, NDP, Timmins—James Bay, ON]

How many lobbying meetings would there have been? Would you say that there have been meetings with Suncor and other officials in terms of the emissions plan?

It has failed and the reporting that we've had is that they've been meeting. We do know that the clean fuel standards are delayed by three years, so either, as the environment commissioner says, the alarm bells are ringing or it's business as usual in the department.

Have there been meetings with representatives from the oil lobby on these issues and how many?

[John Moffet]

I can follow up with the number of meetings. I can tell you that I am among the most frequently met with officials in the Government of Canada.

My door is open. I meet regularly with oil and gas industry. I meet regularly with environmental NGOs. I meet regularly with environmental justice representatives. I meet regularly with all levels of government—

[Charlie Angus, NDP, Timmins—James Bay, ON]

They've had over 6,000 meetings with the government. That's more than ordinary people. That's serious inside information.

Can you tell us what influence oil and gas have when the government delays its clean fuel regs and when the government continues to not have an emissions cap where it's been promised? Somebody—