Natural Resources Committee on Sept. 18th, 2023

[The Chair, Liberal, John Aldag]

Good morning, everyone. I'd like to call this meeting to order.

Welcome to meeting number 71 of the House of Commons Standing Committee on Natural Resources. Pursuant to Standing Order 108(2) and the motion adopted on November 29, 2022, we are commencing the committee's study on Canada's clean energy plans in the context of the North American energy transformation.

We have a number of departmental officials today to kick us off.

I'd like to welcome you. We'll get into the introductions shortly.

I'd also like to welcome all of the members, staff and the team, including our new clerk, Patrick, and Stephanie, who's going to be supporting us through the transition.

Welcome to our analysts and everybody else who makes this possible, including our interpreters and all of their support. I hope everybody had a great summer.

Before we get started, Mr. Angus, you've motioned something, so I'll turn the floor over to you briefly and then we'll get into our meeting.

[Charlie Angus, NDP, Timmins—James Bay, ON]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

I'm extremely pleased to be back and to see all of my colleagues here. I hope all of you had a safe summer. We certainly were affected by the burning in the Far North and the communities that were forced into evacuation. We saw fires right across North America and children who couldn't go out to play. Coming into Ottawa in the summer was a scene out of a nightmare. I raise this because I think it's really important that we get our committee focused on this.

To that end, Mr. Chair, I have brought forward a motion asking Mr. Kruger, the CEO of Suncor, to come to testify. I was very surprised by his comment that the urgent issue for Suncor was to make as much money as possible. This is a company that's made $70 billion in profits in two years. We've seen that these companies are putting the brakes on transition spending with no new investment in reducing emissions, yet they are regularly coming to Ottawa to look for us, the Canadian taxpayer, to give them money to deal with these costs.

I have the motion. We can debate it now or I could debate it at the end, but I think it's really important that we invite Mr. Kruger to come forward to explain whether or not Suncor is going to be a good corporate citizen at a time when we need all hands on deck to deal with the urgency of a burning planet.

[The Chair, Liberal, John Aldag]

Your motion was put on notice in advance. We do have our departmental officials here, and I would like to get to them sooner rather than later.

Is there any discussion on the motion?

Ms. Dabrusin, I'll go to you first.

[Julie Dabrusin, Liberal, Toronto—Danforth, ON]

First, I would like to say that I support Mr. Angus's motion.

I think it would actually be good to hear from the CEOs of all of those related companies on this point he raised. I think he is absolutely correct. We have seen a summer of wildfires, and it's important that the oil and gas sector, which is our largest emitting sector in the country, comes to talk to us about what meaningful action they're taking to decarbonize and to reach net zero by 2050.

I support the motion.

[The Chair, Liberal, John Aldag]

Thank you.

Mrs. Stubbs is next.

[Shannon Stubbs, Conservative, Lakeland, AB]

Thanks, Chair. It's nice to be back with all of you.

Thanks, Charlie, for your motion. I wonder if we could have a discussion, either now or later, on where you see this fitting in, because I think we have an agreement to do the electricity interties study after the seven meetings on this IRA study.

In general, we support the concept of Canadian energy company executives coming to committee to inform members of this committee, who sometimes seem woefully uninformed, about the scope and scale of innovation investments in technology; of the ways that energy companies—particularly Suncor—have been driving the development of renewable and alternative energies, as well as the fuels of the future, for decades; and, certainly in Alberta's case, of a province with the oldest and largest commercialized solar and wind farms to the point that now they're going through decommissioning as a result of major private sector investments from companies like Suncor and other energy companies in the country.

It's totally reasonable to have energy executives come here to tell this committee, as well as all Canadians, about the major impacts they make with private sector dollars, which is actually the Conservative priority of technology over taxes to achieve emissions reductions globally.

We support the concept of energy executives coming here, but I just wonder how this would fit in schedule-wise.

[The Chair, Liberal, John Aldag]

Thanks.

Just before I go to Mr. Angus and then to Monsieur Simard, I booked about 20 minutes at the end of the meeting today for committee business. If we feel that there's going to be a bit more time....

We'll see where the discussion goes with our officials and how quickly we can get into starting the meeting, but we do have time at the end of the meeting to discuss the fall work plan and any adjustments. I heard from Ms. Dabrusin perhaps an amendment or some sort of massaging of the new motion put forward by Mr. Angus, and we'll have to look at timing.

We can continue that now, or we can hear from the last two speakers that I have currently on my list, get into the discussion and then come back to this at the end of the meeting, if that's okay with our members.

We'll go to Mr. Angus and then to Monsieur Simard.

[Charlie Angus, NDP, Timmins—James Bay, ON]

Thank you.

It seems like we have interest in this. I don't want to belabour the point. I don't think this needs a big study, like some of the other studies we're doing.

I think we could have a meeting where Mr. Kruger and Suncor come to explain why they've walked away from the transition funding and what they see as urgent in terms of the urgency that Canadians are feeling.

I'm ready to vote on it. I think we could have a meeting. If people wanted to have more executives, we could have more than one meeting, but we have a busy schedule and I don't want to belabour the point. I'm ready to vote.

[The Chair, Liberal, John Aldag]

We have Monsieur Simard and then Mr. Dreeshen.

[Mario Simard, Bloc, Jonquière, QC]

Mr. Chair, I was going to suggest that we settle this in subcommittee, where we could consult the analysts in order to agree on a date. It would be the easiest way to do it.

I fully agree with Mr. Angus' motion. We just need to know how to implement it quickly and, at the same time, ask our analysts to provide us with a little more information on the impact of the oil and gas sector, and give them time to prepare documentation so that we have a little more of a complete picture.

We shouldn't rush if we want to have interesting and well-prepared meetings, which is why it's important to wait and discuss it in subcommittee in order to better plan our work.

[The Chair, Liberal, John Aldag]

Thank you.

Go ahead, Mr. Dreeshen.

[Earl Dreeshen, Conservative, Red Deer—Mountain View, AB]

Welcome, everyone.

I wasn't really going to say anything until Charlie said, “I'm prepared to vote on this right now.” I felt it was important to also put a few more points on the table in case we don't do what Mario suggested, which is to go and deal with this later today. I'm not in agreement with voting on this right away, but I really think it's important.

The main discussion started off with the wildfires here in Canada and so on. It happens to be the fewest forest fires they've had in the U.S. in generations right now, but in Canada, yes, we have a problem. The problem isn't because of the carbon tax or the decision of Suncor. These are forestry issues that should have been dealt with many years prior. Having them come to explain that, I think, is important. I just want to make sure that everyone recognizes that, when we comment, it is not simply because, looking at the global situation as far as energy is concerned and the disastrous policies that have affected Europe, Australia and other places around the world, all of a sudden, we want to go and poke a finger at one of Canada's larger employers. That is my position on that.

Again, if we are going to discuss this in public, perhaps we will need to have some more time today. If we want to wait for the vote, I'm happy to do that.

Thank you.

[The Chair, Liberal, John Aldag]

Thanks.

Go ahead, Mr. Angus.

[Charlie Angus, NDP, Timmins—James Bay, ON]

Thank you.

I certainly think we've heard everyone's position. I'm interested in talking with Mr. Simard later about how we get more information. I think we have consensus to vote on this. If we can vote on it, we can put it into the plan. I'd be happy with that.

I'd work with Mr. Simard and my colleagues on what we would need to make sure that we have this in a way that allows us, as parliamentarians, to do our job, which is to reflect on public policy, particularly in a time of crisis, and report to the Canadian people.

I call a vote.

[The Chair, Liberal, John Aldag]

Charlie, I'm willing to take that. There are some details that we'll need to figure out.

If you can read your motion, we'll vote on it with the commitment to come back to it during our committee business to look at how we insert it into the existing work plan that we have.

[Charlie Angus, NDP, Timmins—James Bay, ON]

Okay. I move:

That, given recent comments made by Suncor CEO Richard Kruger throwing into doubt their previously made commitments to reduce harmful GHG emissions, and reflecting a disturbing trend among major Oil & Gas producers; and

given that the Suncor CEO Richard Kruger recently told his Board of Directors that Suncor will now act with a “revised direction and tone” and that he will act with “a sense of urgency” to maximize profits through a focus on fossil fuel exploitation; and

given the fact that Suncor tripled its profits in a single year while pledging to eliminate 20% of its workforce and already laying off 1,500 workers this year; and

given that the fact that Canadians have this summer witnessed the effects of unprecedented catastrophic climate disasters, a crisis that any reasonable person would recognize as showing the urgency for GHG emissions reductions; and

given that the Canadian Oil & Gas sector are responsible for 28% of GHG emissions in Canada; and

given that Canadians are counting on leaders in the Canadian Oil & Gas sector to do their part to tackle the global climate change crisis; and

pursuant to Standing Order 108(2), the Standing Committee on Natural Resources invite Suncor CEO Rich Kruger to committee to explain why he believes that the only “urgency” facing the oil sector is to make as much money as possible while increasing production and abandoning their responsibility to help meet Canada's international climate commitments; that, given the urgency of the climate crisis, Mr. Kruger be invited to appear as soon as possible; that a report of this meeting be prepared and reported to the House; and that, pursuant to Standing Order 109, the government table a comprehensive response to the report.

[The Chair, Liberal, John Aldag]

Thank you.

Ms. Dabrusin was on the list, so I'll have her speak now. Then we'll see where we are.

[Julie Dabrusin, Liberal, Toronto—Danforth, ON]

I want to propose what I think would be a friendly amendment to Mr. Angus's motion, which would be, in the last sentence of the invitation part, in the last paragraph, to say that “Mr. Kruger and other energy executives be invited to appear as soon as possible”.

[Charlie Angus, NDP, Timmins—James Bay, ON]

Okay.

[The Chair, Liberal, John Aldag]

Mr. Dreeshen, go ahead.

[Earl Dreeshen, Conservative, Red Deer—Mountain View, AB]

To speak to the amendment, by “other energy executives”, do you mean from...? We were talking about a really quick meeting, so my concern is what field these energy executives we are talking about are from. If we simply say “energy executives”, we could be talking about a dozen people, a dozen CEOs, or many. I don't think the amendment is as concise as perhaps Charlie had indicated he wanted it to be when he was just going to talk to the one executive.

Perhaps I should stick with the amendment; however, I more or less disagree with most of what Charlie has said, other than that we'd like to invite him to come to talk.

[The Chair, Liberal, John Aldag]

I'll go to you, Ms. Dabrusin, if you have a point of clarification regarding Mr. Dreeshen's concern.

[Julie Dabrusin, Liberal, Toronto—Danforth, ON]

My reference is really to oil and gas energy executives. I think perhaps there's wording we would want to use to try to massage that, but I think we can take that as our understanding going forward.

[The Chair, Liberal, John Aldag]

Ms. Stubbs, go ahead.

[Shannon Stubbs, Conservative, Lakeland, AB]

I think my colleague's point is relevant because what we're seeing here again is this false dichotomy from the left about energy companies in Canada. Of course, major multinational oil and gas companies are also the major investors in clean tech, innovation, renewable alternative energies and fuels of the future, and petrochemicals and hydrogen. It's not quite as simple as something being just an oil and gas company or only an oil and gas company. There are very few oil and gas companies in Canada that are focused exclusively on oil and gas, because they are multipronged energy companies whose expertise, technology, capabilities, skills and private sector dollars go into the whole array of energy development and all of the innovation and technology required. That's why Earl's point is relevant.