Natural Resources Committee on Sept. 25th, 2023

[Earl Dreeshen, Conservative, Red Deer—Mountain View, AB]

I appreciate that. Of course, we know there was a great amount of money put out to go from coal to natural gas.

Mr. Buffalo, you'd probably be interested in that. Many of these projects are going to be on first nations land. One thing you have been asking is, who's going to deal with this? It's been an issue in Alberta. There are dozens of corridors of land that are being put into solar panels and wind farms. We talk about food security, yet we don't seem to care about taking out agricultural land.

I'm curious about this, Mr. Buffalo. I know that indigenous people worked hard to harness the economic power of natural resources on their land. Are you getting any assurances, from companies that are proposing projects on your land, that there will actually be a process involved that is going to protect that land in the future?

[Stephen Buffalo]

It's the same as in the oil and gas sector. We're told it will be nice and everything at the end, but it's really hard to trust—the industry proved itself.

[Earl Dreeshen, Conservative, Red Deer—Mountain View, AB]

I believe it. Just to that point, I know that even though oil and gas is regulated differently, it doesn't mean they're doing it right or that there couldn't be improvements. When you have a massive tract of land and they're laying down steel in order to put in solar panels, or that type of thing, that's really where the concern is. If they leave, then it's not just sending somebody to clean up an oil well site. That's the concern I have.

I will come back to some other things. We've had Calvin Helin here to discuss some issues with the economy and the frustrations that his and other indigenous companies have had in trying to work their way through some of the nuances with the federal government.

Has Bill C-69 affected your projects? Do you fear that the billions of dollars your people have put into oil and gas structures and facilities could end up becoming a stranded asset for which there is no recourse?

[Stephen Buffalo]

You're absolutely right. Even to get to that point, the timing is huge. My colleague Mr. Friesen talked about how long these projects will take to get off the ground. The investment looks good, and of course we see some of the returns that might be identified, but at the end of the day, absolutely, we'll be looking at what's left over when it's all said and done. I know there are some—not really specifically but....

With the lifespan of solar panels and wind turbines, who's going to take care of that? At the end of the day, was that great usage of the land we have? We have very limited use of land on first nations reserves. We might claim traditional territory off reserve, but who's going to take care of it?

Right now the government's history is not good through Indian Oil and Gas Canada. We're stuck with abandoned wells, which should be orphaned when there's no owner. Part of me is afraid this could happen again with the wind turbines and solar panels. What is the recourse on the environmental cleanup on those things?

We are more or less looking at some of the returns and the opportunities given to the nations, because that can be a good thing. We have to make sure it's properly regulated. If we're consulted correctly, we can probably work together to make sure that's done properly.

[The Chair, Liberal, John Aldag]

We go to Mr. Sorbara for his five minutes on the clock.

[Francesco Sorbara, Liberal, Vaughan—Woodbridge, ON]

I first want to get on the record that, according to BloombergNEF, renewable energy investment for the first half of 2023 hit a record of $358 billion across the globe. A large chunk of it was in solar and wind, and across many countries: China, Germany, the United States and other jurisdictions. I don't think that's going to stop, if I can put that in very simple terms. I think you're going to continue to see strength in investment in the renewable energy sector across the world and that large capital pools are going to continue to be attracted.

To Mr. Friesen at ATCO, the Inflation Reduction Act just hit its one-year anniversary about a month ago or so. You are correct that the enabling legislation from our side—as I commented—is still coming through. That is different from the legislative process in the United States, where it is very clear and definitive when a law is put in place, and you can read it and it's very easy and simple to understand.

One comment you made was about aligning regulatory processes with outcomes, the third pillar. Can you elaborate on that? The second point I would like to hear some elaboration on is this: You touched on the importance of hydrogen or the cost curve on hydrogen coming down, if I understood correctly. If you could comment on those two, that would be great.

[Dale Friesen]

The first question was about regulatory processes matching outcomes. In the simplest terms, there is enormous ambition for the Canadian government and for Canada to decarbonize. To do that, having processes that are simple and streamlining regulatory and permitting processes would allow that outcome to occur more easily and faster, and would give more confidence to investors.

I'm sorry, but the second question was...?

[Francesco Sorbara, Liberal, Vaughan—Woodbridge, ON]

You commented on hydrogen. I'd like you to elaborate on hydrogen and the cost curve in the adoption of hydrogen as another viable energy source.

[Dale Friesen]

Thank you.

One of the real tricks to getting the price of hydrogen down is scale. If you can make it in swimming pool sizes versus teacup sizes, you can lower the cost, particularly of the hydrogen made from the Alberta autothermal reformers with CCUS, and have it over 90% emissions-free.

Scale is important. To do that, you need customers. To do that, you need certainty on ITCs, on the contract for differences for carbon and on various funding mechanisms, because that gives industry the confidence to build large projects like the ones Suncor and others are looking at. That production can then be used to.... That's what I would call your anchor tenant for the mall. What it does is create a cheaper volume of hydrogen, which you can use for decarbonizing heating [Technical difficulty—Editor].

[The Chair, Liberal, John Aldag]

We've lost you.

[Dale Friesen]

I'm sorry.

Being able to build hydrogen at scale allows you to lower the price and then be able to decarbonize industry, heating, power generation and transportation. It's the scalability that helps lower the cost.

[Francesco Sorbara, Liberal, Vaughan—Woodbridge, ON]

Thank you, sir.

I'll stop there, Chair.

[The Chair, Liberal, John Aldag]

Thank you.

With that, Mr. Friesen and Mr. Buffalo, thank you so much. I'm not sure how long we said we were going to keep you, but I appreciate your staying until the end of this part of our meeting.

Colleagues, we will now suspend and go in camera.

I would like to say, just before we go, that this will be my last meeting as the chair. We will have a new chair, who will take over on Wednesday. We'll have more on that in the upcoming session. I want to thank everybody for their support and input over the last couple of years since we came back for the 44th Parliament. That business will be made public once we get through the closed session.

Mr. Angus, I'll go to you quickly, and then we'll suspend and move into a closed session.

[Charlie Angus, NDP, Timmins—James Bay, ON]

Quickly, Chair, I want to put it on the record, on behalf of the New Democrats, that we thank you for your patience, your dedication and your unwillingness to let all the mountains that were thrown in your path stop you and this committee from moving forward.

It's been an honour and a privilege to work with you, and we hope that you will stick around. I'd like to see the more partisan, heckling side of the chair in another capacity.

[The Chair, Liberal, John Aldag]

Challenge accepted. Thank you for those kind words.

We'll suspend. We'll be back in a moment in camera.

[Proceedings continue in camera]