Natural Resources Committee on Oct. 16th, 2023

[Rich Kruger]

I think there are two different things. When we talk about consumers, we're talking about retail or aviation. In the Pathways, we're talking about upstream competitiveness. Will Canadian oil and gas production be competitive? Oil and gas are in a global market in terms of where they come from and where they are consumed.

Quite frankly, I think the Pathways work is a brilliant strategy. It's about a public-private partnership that enables the decarbonization of Canada's hydrocarbon reserves, so that companies and Canadians nationwide can continue to benefit from this resource we have been blessed with.

[Mario Simard, Bloc, Jonquière, QC]

I understand that, but you have talked about competitiveness many times, saying that you have to be competitive. If you add the costs, you become less competitive. If you have to pay for decarbonization to have net zero oil and gas by 2050, you're going to be less competitive, and somebody is going to have to pay for it.

Do you agree with me?

[Rich Kruger]

When it comes to competitiveness, quite frankly, in the oil and gas world, Canada is a high-cost jurisdiction. We have naturally higher costs. That relates to where we are, the type of operations we conduct—

[Mario Simard, Bloc, Jonquière, QC]

I'm sorry to interrupt you.

I'll make it clearer, and you can give me a yes or no answer.

Are oil and gas produced under a carbon capture strategy more expensive than oil and gas produced without it?

[Rich Kruger]

I think it depends. That's one component of cost. When you look at whether it's more costly or not, it depends on all of the other components of cost. That's where we look at what we can do to offset increasing costs. Can we bring a greater efficiency, greater productivity or new technology into it? The answer is “it depends”.

Does it add a cost? Absolutely. Can the cost be offset to maintain global competitiveness? That's the question.

[Mario Simard, Bloc, Jonquière, QC]

Can't we apply the same logic when it comes to the clean fuel regulations?

[Rich Kruger]

I think that's what we try to do each and every day. It's looking at how we run our operations more efficiently to try to be more competitive so that we can provide affordable, reliable fuels to Canadians nationwide and do it in such a way that, as a company, we can also run a profitable company.

[Mario Simard, Bloc, Jonquière, QC]

We may be able to come back to this.

Quickly, in your opinion, what's the difference between the clean fuel regulations and the investments you plan to make to reduce the carbon intensity of the oil and gas sector?

[Rich Kruger]

I'll go back to what I said earlier. I haven't studied up on the clean fuel regulations. I've come in, and we comply and provide fuels that meet the regulations.

I could go back and forth with you, but I don't know if I'd give you clarity on the answer that you appear to be seeking.

[The Chair, Liberal, George Chahal]

Thank you, Mr. Kruger.

We'll now move to Mr. Angus from the New Democratic Party for six minutes.

[Charlie Angus, NDP, Timmins—James Bay, ON]

Thank you so much, Mr. Chair.

Thank you much, Mr. Kruger and Madam Strom, for coming today.

It's October and Canada is still burning out of control. We have never seen anything like this. People are trying to come up with language to describe the impacts.

Would you say that it has been a catastrophic year for climate-induced wildfire and flood?

[Rich Kruger]

I would say it's been a tragic year. I think it's horrible what Canadians across this great country have experienced. I think we would say—

[Charlie Angus, NDP, Timmins—James Bay, ON]

But it's not catastrophic—

[Rich Kruger]

I think you're picking words. I would say that it's been a tragic year for those involved.

[Charlie Angus, NDP, Timmins—James Bay, ON]

Okay, “tragic”.... That's fair play.

You've been around the boardroom at Suncor and Imperial. You're a former vice-president of Exxon. You guys talk about questions of liability.

How much responsibility is your industry willing to take for the destabilized climate and the climate crisis that have forced 200,000 people out of their homes this summer?

[Rich Kruger]

Mr. Angus, I can obviously sense your passion on this. I think global energy, greenhouse gas emissions and climate change are complex issues that are important to our society. We all have a role in it, whether that's government, industry or society.

I share your passion and concern on the topic, but I don't think it's about what fraction is one party...versus the other.

[Charlie Angus, NDP, Timmins—James Bay, ON]

I'm certainly passionate. We had so many people evacuated. They had to escape by canoe this summer from wildfires in James Bay, which we've never seen before, so we are passionate.

However, I guess I question.... You're a former vice-president of Exxon. I'm looking here at some of your Exxon documents. Your internal scientific reports warned that it would “indeed be catastrophic...for a substantial fraction of the [world]'s population” if you didn't change course. A year later, your company—you were on the management team—prepared a briefing that again used the word “catastrophic” in terms of what you were doing.

What do you think the legal liabilities are for your company and your involvement for having suppressed that scientific evidence? It's not just that we're all part of this. You knew scientifically that what you were doing was destabilizing the planet.

[Rich Kruger]

You have the advantage of looking at documents that I haven't seen. I haven't—

[Charlie Angus, NDP, Timmins—James Bay, ON]

I will give them to you.

[Rich Kruger]

Can I finish my reply?

[Charlie Angus, NDP, Timmins—James Bay, ON]

Yes, absolutely.

[Rich Kruger]

I did work for Exxon for 31 years around the globe in production, operations and projects. I never worked in strategy or research. If you have questions about what Exxon knew and when, they're probably best addressed to Exxon.

[Charlie Angus, NDP, Timmins—James Bay, ON]

That's a good point.

I mean, right now there are the lawsuits—

[Shannon Stubbs, Conservative, Lakeland, AB]

Mr. Chair, I have a point of order.

They're talking about a time that would be close to when I was just born, so I don't know about the back and forth that's going on here about whatever was done at Exxon 30 years ago.

I guess I would have been a teenager—

[An hon. member]

[Inaudible—Editor]