Natural Resources Committee on Feb. 16th, 2022

[Meredith Adler]

Okay, great.

Thank you for inviting me to be here today. I'm honoured to be joining you from the unceded territory of the Squamish people in British Columbia.

Student Energy was founded in Calgary, Alberta, in 2009, precisely because young people in Canada wanted to determine how they could be part of creating a sustainable energy system that no longer contributed to climate change or inequities we see in the world. Our founders were not alone, and today we represent over 50,000 youth in 120 countries. In Canada we have 10 chapters, 30 fellows and a membership of thousands in every province and territory. We're also pleased to be the host organization of the SevenGen council, a group of indigenous youth from first nations, Métis and Inuit communities across Canada that are working to empower their peers to lead in our energy future.

I firmly believe that the greatest stakeholders in the actions Canada takes to curb its emissions are young Canadians. In 2050, my peers and I will still be working full-time jobs, raising children and shaping Canada's economy. For us, a strong cap on oil and gas emissions is essential. If Canada does not act, it is our immediate future that is at stake. We will be left with the economic burdens of climate change and the stranded assets that do not serve us or our communities in the economy of the future.

Overwhelmingly, young Canadians want their country and political leaders like you to take swift action to decarbonize. In 2021, Student Energy conducted our Global Youth Energy Outlook, a “first of its kind” research report that surveyed over 42,000 young people across 123 countries to assemble a robust data set on what young people want from the future of their energy system. The results were overwhelming. Over 80% of young people globally want their country to have a decarbonization target, and 92% of them want to see their country achieve net zero by 2050 or earlier.

Young people are willing to work to make this a reality, with the vast majority seeking careers in sustainable energy, and 82% stating that they would vote for a political candidate based on sustainable energy policy.

In Canada there are often questions about if, as a smaller country, we should act. This data shows us that the answer is a clear yes. Canada has the opportunity to lead, and we can see clearly that this cohesive voice of the next generation will reward this leadership at a global level.

Within our research we did also pay special attention to Canada through surveying young people ages 18 to 30 and hosting regional dialogues on the transition for heavy industry, the innovation landscape and energy access in remote and indigenous communities. Canadian young people show even stronger support for the energy transition, 82% of whom are advocating for decarbonization and 97% of them want Canada to reach a zero-carbon energy system by 2050.

Young Canadians have identified the lack of political willpower and not having appropriate policies and regulations in place as the biggest barrier to achieving this energy future. A strong cap on greenhouse gas emissions for the oil and gas sector is the first step to demonstrating this type of political leadership that Canada's future voters, workers and consumers require.

A cap on emissions creates clarity for industry, workers and impacted communities. Without that transparent and clear plan it will be hard for everyone to have certainty about their future. We already see that young people are turning away from careers in oil and gas, with enrolment in petroleum engineering at the University of Calgary being so low that the university had to suspend the program. High numbers of people currently in the industry are reporting that they are actively looking to pivot careers to other sectors.

Canadians are smart. They know that climate change will be and already is impacting them in their careers. At the same time, the skills and knowledge within Canada's existing oil and gas industry can provide us with great advantages that we can leverage to build a cohesive energy transition together.

From a training perspective, there is a huge opportunity to be innovative and support young people to develop careers that are aligned with a zero-carbon energy system. Canada is primed to foster the next generation of entrepreneurs who will be required to lead this energy future. We can work together to prepare our young people for these incredible opportunities, but it is up to you to provide the political certainty required to enable that investment in our talent and potential.

Young people want their country and leaders to make decisions based on strong values that centre equity, indigenous rights and opportunities for future generations to thrive. A just transition needs to be a priority for all Canadians, and it has to start with strong political leadership. This policy cannot have loopholes. Rather, it must show that you, our political leaders, believe in Canada's ingenuity and the potential of our people, our country and our next generation to rise to meet this opportunity to be a global leader together.

Thank you for having me here today and for working to include young people on these crucial matters that will shape our future.

[The Chair, Liberal, John Aldag]

Excellent. Thank you for your opening comments and to each of the witnesses for your statements.

In the first round of questions, we'll have one representative from each party who will have six minutes.

First up we have Mr. Melillo.

It's over to you for your six minutes.

[Eric Melillo, Conservative, Kenora, ON]

Thank you very much, Mr. Chair.

I'd like to thank all of the witnesses for joining us today to talk about this important issue.

I'd like to start with Chief Gale. I know you're a bit pressed for time, so I hope we can get some comments from you before you go.

I appreciated your opening remarks. Could you provide a bit more information specifically on the Coastal GasLink project? I know your organization has supported a partnership of 12 first nations in their efforts to purchase equity in the project.

Could you share some information on how valuable that is for first nations?

[Chief Sharleen Gale]

I think it would probably be best to refer the first question to Mark Podlasly, who's worked directly with our communities.

[Mark Podlasly, Director, Economic Policy and Initiatives, First Nations Major Projects Coalition]

Thank you for the question and thank you, Chief Gale.

I'm going to speak generally about pipelines and indigenous participation, especially on equity.

The reference you made is to the 12 first nations looking at the Coastal GasLink. There's another proposal in British Columbia. It's the Pacific trails pipeline, which has 16 first nations also looking to take equity. For the record here, I am the chair of that 16 first nations commercial partnership. Right now, that is with Enbridge and is eventually going to service the Kitimat LNG plant on the coast.

First nations look to take equity positions in these projects because it gives us, first of all, a say in how the projects are being built, where they're being operated and where they will be routed.

Also, it's for a revenue stream. Many first nations in the country, particularly those of us who are in remote areas or places where we don't have easy access to urban facilities or urban employment options require a revenue stream to fund self-determination priorities. There is never enough money from Ottawa to fund things like language rehabilitation or sometimes health care issues. There's certainly not enough money at times to fund the priorities that are outlined in the United Nations Declaration on the Rights of Indigenous Peoples as things stand now.

I ask for clarity in your question. Is the question about whether first nations want equity in pipelines or is it that they're looking to secure something else?

[Eric Melillo, Conservative, Kenora, ON]

I was curious to get some thoughts on the benefits of the projects specifically, but I'm going to actually shift to a different topic now, because I do have limited time.

I would like to go back to Chief Gale.

Chief, I come from Kenora, which is a region in northwestern Ontario that encompasses Treaty 3, Treaty 5 and Treaty 9. Although there's definitely not a lot of oil and gas in my region, I think a lot of the chiefs and a lot of the people in my region are interested in how this process plays out, especially from the consultation perspective, considering that the government is moving to align itself with the United Nations Declaration on the Rights of Indigenous Peoples.

I'm wondering, plainly, if you believe that the government should require the consent of indigenous communities across the country before moving forward with a proposed emissions cap.

[Chief Sharleen Gale]

I definitely believe that they should be. Indigenous people have been here for thousands of years and we have been left behind for decades.

As we change policy, it's really important that we're heavily involved in making those decisions because they impact our territories.

As we move into the future, we know that with the renewable energy market, you're going to need to have more access to the mining material as you transition to lithium batteries and all those things. Those resources are on the traditional lands of our territories, so we do need to be involved in any decisions, policy change and discussions moving forward.

Yes, you do need us involved.

[Eric Melillo, Conservative, Kenora, ON]

Thank you. I appreciate that.

This last question will probably take me to the end of my time. I'll come back to you again, Chief Gale.

There are often different interpretations, I suppose, of what consultation means and what it looks like. Do you have any thoughts for our committee on how we should propose to do that in the best way and ensure that it's as inclusive as possible?

[Chief Sharleen Gale]

Yes, I also believe that when people are coming to invest in our territories, true partnership is partnership with the indigenous communities that are affected. I think the truest form of consent is showing that you want to work with our communities.

I want to open up the floor to Mark, if he has a comment on that.

[Mark Podlasly]

We will need consultation and consent to be granted. Consent is required under UNDRIP legislation, so first nations will have to give that consent. Chief Gale is right. Those resources for net-zero futures are on our territories and on our reserves.

[Eric Melillo, Conservative, Kenora, ON]

I do have a bit more time.

I'll go back to you, Mr. Podlasly. I appreciate your comments on the fact that the consent is needed. Do you have more specific suggestions or recommendations for us on how the government will best move forward on gaining that consent?

[Mark Podlasly]

The purest form of consent is an equity ownership in a project. It makes the first nations a proponent of the project. That is the purest form of consent.

As for recommendations, you have to make capital available to first nations at a reasonable cost, because that's the biggest barrier for first nations that want to be part of major projects.

[Eric Melillo, Conservative, Kenora, ON]

Thank you.

[The Chair, Liberal, John Aldag]

Thank you. You're right on the six-minute mark.

We're going to Ms. Jones.

You have six minutes.

[Yvonne Jones, Liberal, Labrador, NL]

Thank you very much, Mr. Chair.

Thank you to all the witnesses. I think it was great testimony today, and I wish we had more time to ask questions.

I'm going to try to get in at least three questions.

I'm going to start with you, Ms. Carter.

I'm a member of Parliament in Newfoundland and Labrador. I'm coming to you today from Labrador, the unceded lands of the Innu and the Inuit of Labrador.

I come from an oil-producing province that has had a tremendous dependency on this. You talked about your own family and the workers. Obviously, what we're proposing and what we need to do to protect the planet is going to be heavy lifting by everyone, and it's going to require all of us making significant changes, no doubt.

With your knowledge of the industry, the dependency on the industry and your knowledge of where we need to go with climate change, how should the Government of Canada be working together with large oil and gas industries to not just reduce the emissions and to look at a cap, but also to help transition the workers, the families, the communities that have become dependent? How do you see our walking that line and being able to accomplish that goal? What needs to happen?

[Dr. Angela Carter]

That is a great question, and I'm really happy to get it from you, Ms. Jones. It's our first interaction, and it's nice to be able to have it in this form, on this important issue.

What you're pointing out is the importance of a just transition for the people who live in Newfoundland and Labrador, and I'm sure that Mr. McGowan has a lot to add on this as well. What that means is we need governments working in collaboration with the labour movement, with workers, with unions and affected communities to create a plan for how we're going to move from being now very oil dependent to being able to seize the benefits of a clean energy economy.

I think one thing right off the top that I would say is that we've seen, especially in the last year or so in Newfoundland and Labrador, huge sums of funds, $320 million that came from the federal government, that was intended to support workers and to put us on a track for a new energy economy. Instead, that huge subsidy for the most part was given to multinational firms, and they didn't guarantee any jobs from that. That was a huge disappointment. We didn't get any binding agreements that employment would be kept.

We need to make sure that any future funds that are coming from the federal government—and it sounds like there will be if we get just transition legislation in place in Alberta, Saskatchewan and Newfoundland and Labrador—are used to help workers and communities make the transition.

There are plenty of examples of just transition that we can draw on in the OECD: Denmark, Scotland, Spain, France, Germany, Sweden. The EU has plenty of examples for us. We don't need to reinvent the wheel. We can also look closely at some American states, such as Illinois and New York, that are creating green job coalitions with labour, governments and indigenous peoples, or other groups in society that might be hurt by this change.

I see a huge potential for this.

[Yvonne Jones, Liberal, Labrador, NL]

Thank you. I wish we had more time to ask more questions, but I want to move on to Chief Gale. She made so many great points as well in her testimony.

We know that any change here is going to be a risk for indigenous people. It's going to affect indigenous people in Canada. I live in a riding that is highly industrial. It's on indigenous lands. A lot of this is happening. They are the ones mostly impacted. Whether it's in development or whether it's in a slowing of development, oftentimes they are the most vulnerable people who are caught in the middle of this.

I want to ask you, Chief, if you can tell me today what you view as being some of the key risks that will be facing indigenous communities and indigenous people with this economic transition, and how we can make it easier or how we can be more inclusive. UNDRIP I'm very familiar with. But even within our own indigenous governments—even the one I'm a part of, and I'm sure one you're a part of—we often have differences of opinion. We need to have a good, solid path forward here.

How do you see the Government of Canada working with indigenous people to make sure that transition is done properly and they don't end up bearing some of the greatest risk here?

[Chief Sharleen Gale]

There's definitely no single solution to achieving the net-zero emissions. There are several parallel paths and technologies that need to be employed. The First Nations Major Projects Coalition doesn't take a position on whether caps should be applied to other sectors, but we often offer the best advice that first nations need to be a part of the process in all sectors.

I think the impact is yet to be seen in terms of how this all works, but I think the overall need is for first nations to be involved in anything that affects our basic recognition of rights in partnerships, and the need for first nations' participation in the economy and to have benefits of the transition to a net-zero economy.

I know that when we move forward on these kinds of decisions, we do it carefully. As a person who's from Fort Nelson First Nation, we always make decisions on the land from our...and the guidance from our elders. There's a lot to consider. Each community is very unique, especially in each province with different regulations and whatnot.

I hope that answers your question.

[Yvonne Jones, Liberal, Labrador, NL]

It does.

[The Chair, Liberal, John Aldag]

Ms. Jones, we're out of time, unfortunately. The six minutes goes quickly.

[Yvonne Jones, Liberal, Labrador, NL]

Thank you.

[The Chair, Liberal, John Aldag]

Monsieur Simard, it's over to you for six minutes.

[Mario Simard, Bloc, Jonquière, QC]

Thank you very much, Mr. Chair.

Good afternoon, Mr. Detuncq. I'm glad to be able to put a face to the name I've seen on many articles I have read.

You spoke earlier of the energy return on investment factor. I would like you to explain it to me in more detail. I would especially like you talk about the intention behind the Canadian hydrogen strategy, which is to make no distinction between blue, grey and green hydrogen.

[Bruno Detuncq]

Thank you for your question. It's a very intriguing one.

You're right, there are different hydrogen production streams. In Quebec, the most natural stream is hydroelectricity, which turns water into hydrogen and oxygen. This process is called electrolysis.

Hydrogen can also be produced by hydrocarbon fracturing. This is actually the most widely used method in the world. In fact, 95% of hydrogen is produced this way. It involves choosing a hydrocarbon, either natural gas or oil, and putting it into chemical reactors to extract the hydrogen and then obtain CO2.

What do they do with the CO2? If the CO2 gets released into the atmosphere, it's called grey hydrogen. If they try to capture and sequester it underground, it's called blue hydrogen.

The CFA Institute, a U.S. institute for economic and financial analysis research funded by the Rockefeller Foundation, recently released a fascinating report. It very clearly shows that, economically speaking, hydrogen is not profitable, especially with oil as heavy as the oil sands type. It's true, producing oil from oil sands requires a lot of energy. So it's how much energy you put in versus how much you take out. Once you produce the oil, you need to start another phase to separate the oil and extract hydrogen. The CO2 must also be sequestered. So you lose energy at every stage. These energy losses make for a very low energy return on investment, or EROI. At that point, you have to ask yourself if you really need to do it.

In addition, recent studies show that we currently have very little work being done to ensure that there are no long-term risks to sequestering CO2 underground. CO2 is not neutral. When moisture is present, it can bond with water vapour and form weak acid, that is, carbonic acid. In the long run, this acid can affect the caverns or spaces in which it will be sequestered, or the saline aquifers. We have absolutely no information on what will happen in the long run.

The energy return on investment would at least require a complete study of the process. That is currently not being done, and it's very unfortunate.

[Mario Simard, Bloc, Jonquière, QC]

I don't want to put words in your mouth, but that means that the concept of energy return on investment is not taken into consideration in Canadian policy.

Am I right?