Natural Resources Committee on Feb. 8th, 2024

[Katie Power]

Thank you. I appreciate your comments.

I understand that it is late to rewrite. We had been of the position that we owe it to the fishery and to all other ocean users to write new legislation, specific and directly involving and engaging this situation in renewable energy, in order to not do a disservice and to fully support the industry in the right way possible.

[Mario Simard, Bloc, Jonquière, QC]

Thanks very much.

Ms. Josenhans, I believe I understood from your presentation that you would like Bill C-49 to be passed quickly. I have some reservations about this bill. I see from reading it that it would put renewable energy and the hydrocarbon industry on an equal footing. If this is in fact a bill concerning the energy transition, I think it should contain clear indications of a gradual exit from hydrocarbons. However, that's not what we're seeing from the government, which in recent months and years has agreed to permit new drilling.

Would you have any ideas for amendments that would help balance that dynamic between renewables, wind energy in this instance, and the hydrocarbon industry.

[Jennifer Josenhans]

Thank you very much for the question.

I should be very specific that my remit here today is to speak about the coalition. The coalition's mandate is very specific to the marine conservation targets as promised by the Government of Canada.

While our groups, as separate entities, work on things like renewable energy, the just energy transition and a lot of the topics that are more specific to what you're asking, our statement was really focused on how this legislation would move along the marine conservation targets and specifically the ability of the federal government and the provinces to work together to rescind existing oil and gas leases.

While I would love to comment on that personally, speaking for the coalition, I can't really give a specific answer, for which I apologize, but thank you for the question.

[Mario Simard, Bloc, Jonquière, QC]

Thank you, I understand.

However, the objective of your coalition is to propose marine conservation targets. Could you provide the committee with data on the impact of exploratory drilling on species and biodiversity. Do you have data on those points?

[Jennifer Josenhans]

We do. In the key points of the brief we submitted, which I summarized in my opening statement, we go into a bit more detail on the effects of oil and gas on marine biodiversity as well as some of the effects of renewable energy installations on marine biodiversity.

If you would require any information outside of what we have submitted or any more detail, I would be more than happy to provide that. Please don't hesitate to get in touch.

[Mario Simard, Bloc, Jonquière, QC]

So you can provide that to the committee. I would also ask you to provide the committee with suggested amendments to the bill, if you wish, just as I asked Ms. Power to do.

Thank you.

[The Chair, Liberal, George Chahal]

Thank you.

We'll now go to Mr. Angus for six minutes.

Mr. Angus, the floor is yours.

[Charlie Angus, NDP, Timmins—James Bay, ON]

Thank you to our witnesses. This has all been excellent.

This legislation is being driven very much by the Newfoundland and Labrador and Nova Scotia governments. We're at a point where, if there are concerns, amendments to legislation are really important. This is the task we have. This is why we have witnesses. Witnesses come and tell us when there are problems. There's never been, in all my years, legislation that was perfect. It always has things that aren't seen, so your testimony matters a lot.

Ms. Fuller, I know they've asked that you put your responses in writing. I have many questions for you, but I'll sort of just do an overall frame of them.

With the situation with the provincial consultation process in Nova Scotia on this, do you feel the process is working? Do you feel this will help avoid conflict with fishers and other users in Nova Scotia? Will this bill, the way it's been written, allow the federal and provincial governments to protect marine areas when they need to be protected?

We saw the situation with Sable Island oil leases, where there had to be a huge public outcry to stop that and protect that area. Will this legislation, from the perspective of the province of Nova Scotia, represent the needs of the province and the protection of the environment and protection of the fragile marine ecosystem?

If you could respond to us on that, it would be very helpful, going ahead.

Ms. Josenhans, I want to ask you similar questions.

One is whether you're able to talk about Sable Island, because that was the last oil lease, I think, off Nova Scotia. It was a huge public outcry.

Do you believe this legislation puts in place the ability to protect fragile marine ecosystems while allowing wind project development?

[Jennifer Josenhans]

Yes, in short. Speaking for the coalition, we do believe those two things can coexist—that we have a lot of ocean real estate and we can still pursue the goals of the 30% by 2030 and the 25% by 2025 while transitioning toward clean energy.

It will involve an all-in approach and it will involve rigorous marine spatial planning, but yes, absolutely these two things can coexist. They must coexist because really we have the same goal. Conserving our ocean and transitioning away from fossil fuels are all for the betterment of future generations, so these two things must coexist.

[Charlie Angus, NDP, Timmins—James Bay, ON]

I know that you're here to represent a coalition and you're going to be super careful. I'm going to ask you this as a resident. You're from Lunenburg, are you not?

Two years ago, I got an invite to speak at the Lunenburg writers festival. I was all pumped, and then there was this terrifying hurricane and nobody could get in. They said, “Don't worry, we'll do it next year.” Then, the next year, I had to cancel at the last minute because there was a terrifying hurricane.

I'm from the land of rocks and trees. I mean, I like the pictures of the Atlantic, but it scares the hell out of me. When that water moves and decides it's angry, you have serious issues. Are you seeing, in real time, changes in the ocean because of what's happened with the climate?

[Jennifer Josenhans]

Unequivocally yes...and not just in the ocean. I mean, we have just dealt with a massive snowstorm. That was also referred to by one of your honourable members.

The winds here are stronger than I've ever seen. Yes, I sit on the board of our local museum, and we've had to replace sections of the wharf much more often than we've ever had to in the past. Yes, unequivocally.

[Charlie Angus, NDP, Timmins—James Bay, ON]

I was in St. John's a couple of years ago when I was running for NDP leader. I came in second, by the way, if you want that in Trivial Pursuit, but that doesn't matter.

[Some hon. members]

Oh, oh!

[Jeremy Patzer, Conservative, Cypress Hills—Grasslands, SK]

You're saying you lost.

[Charlie Angus, NDP, Timmins—James Bay, ON]

Coming in second is what it is, but I have thick skin.

[An hon. member]

Don't give up.

[Charlie Angus, NDP, Timmins—James Bay, ON]

Will you guys be quiet? I'm trying to do serious work here.

[Some hon. members]

Oh, oh!

[Charlie Angus, NDP, Timmins—James Bay, ON]

When I was in St. John's, I was talking to fishers who couldn't get their boats out into the North Atlantic, they said, because there was so much ice coming down. The melting ice was affecting the fishery. We know that last June the water temperature in the North Atlantic was 1.36°C above average. That was really staggering.

We now have a new study that the gulf stream is at its weakest in 1,600 years. In an El Niño year, they worry about a tipping point.

What does that mean for the ability of our fishing industry if they're going up against those odds of a changing climate in the ocean?

[Katie Power]

Was that directed to me or to my colleague?

[Jennifer Josenhans]

I wasn't sure who the question was for. I'm sorry.

[Charlie Angus, NDP, Timmins—James Bay, ON]

It's for Ms. Josenhans, because she was in Lunenburg.

I'll start with her and then we'll go to you, Ms. Power, if we can.

[Jennifer Josenhans]

Thank you very much. I'd also like to hear what Ms. Power has to say.

Yes. I mean, I'm down at the docks all the time speaking to members of the fishery. The concerns are real—absolutely. It's not even just the extreme weather but the change in migration patterns.

To answer your question, yes, it is a great concern of the fishery to see what's happening with respect to our climate.

[Charlie Angus, NDP, Timmins—James Bay, ON]

Just finally, Ms. Power, you represent the people who are out there, day in, day out. Are they seeing changes?

[Katie Power]

I'll try to keep it brief, but I could talk about this for a really long time. The answer, of course, is yes.