Natural Resources Committee on Feb. 15th, 2024

[Mario Simard, Bloc, Jonquière, QC]

Knowing that this requires public money and that this money certainly doesn't grow on trees, do you agree that the federal government should have a carbon pricing mechanism?

[Andrew Parsons]

What I would say in generality is that I do believe in climate change and I do believe that there are measures that had to be taken to address that. Again, it could require much longer than this committee has for us to get into the intricacies of that.

We do have a carbon pricing structure here in Newfoundland and Labrador that I voted in favour of.

[Mario Simard, Bloc, Jonquière, QC]

Thank you.

Mr. Rushton, I would like to ask you the same question.

Would you support an amendment to the bill that could resolve the conflict over use by prioritizing clean energy projects over oil and gas projects?

[Tory Rushton]

I guess what I would say is that there has to be coexistence. We know that fossil fuels have a pathway into that piece of the puzzle until 2050. We're happy, as a province, with where these amendments are and where they're going. I think we have to take the recommendations of the board wholeheartedly when they come forward.

[The Chair, Liberal, George Chahal]

Thank you.

We'll now go to Mr. Angus for two and a half minutes.

Mr. Angus, the floor is yours.

[Charlie Angus, NDP, Timmins—James Bay, ON]

Thank you.

You gentlemen don't look like you just fell off the turnip truck. You don't look like you were hoodwinked. It doesn't sound like this was imposed on you by the big, bad Justin Trudeau. We know that certainly New Democrats pushed for the investment tax credit so that we could match what the Biden government is doing. I hope that it gets to Newfoundland and Labrador and Nova Scotia quickly.

My Conservative colleagues did bring forward some really serious issues. They brought very credible witnesses from the fisheries who were concerned. The unfortunate thing was that they filibustered, so we weren't allowed to ask any questions. It was very difficult to find how we could move forward on the questions being raised by the fishers about their industry and the fragility of the fishing stocks.

Mr. Rushton, I'd like to ask if you've followed the testimony. Under the accord and the board, can we credibly address the issues that have been raised by the fishers?

[Tory Rushton]

Absolutely, regional assessments are taking place right now out in the field. The first report and conversations are due at the end of March.

We as a department are also already hearing from the fishers and other stakeholders out in the water. Quite frankly, we're not interested in pitting one industry against the other. In other parts of the world, industries do coexist out on the water. That's a pathway that we're looking forward to.

After the regional assessment, there will be a process for further consultation. Once the amendments are passed here and we're able to put them in mirror legislation in the province, there will be more consultation that takes place with the fishers. We're hearing from them now. We will continue to hear from them in the future.

[Charlie Angus, NDP, Timmins—James Bay, ON]

Mr. Parsons, I'll end by asking you the same question, because to me and other New Democrats, we have to ensure that if we're building big projects, even if they are to help the climate crisis and create jobs and diversity, we're not impacting the fragile fish stocks and we're making sure fishers are viable. Again, it's unfortunate that some of these great witnesses were filibustered so they weren't allowed to speak, but are you hearing from them and are you committed to moving forward? Should this be done at the provincial level, or do we need to do it in amendments in Bill C-49?

[Andrew Parsons]

I don't believe amendments are required. I can say that our oil and gas and our fishing industries have coexisted for some time. In fact, I think that consultation will be a part of this. Prior to any project's going forward, it would have to go through an environmental assessment, for which there would be more specifics. Again, no one can overstate the importance of the fisheries, especially for this province.

[Charlie Angus, NDP, Timmins—James Bay, ON]

Thank you.

[The Chair, Liberal, George Chahal]

Thank you.

We are heading to our last two members for questions.

We'll go to Mr. Small for five minutes.

Mr. Small, the floor is yours.

[Clifford Small, Conservative, Coast of Bays—Central—Notre Dame, NL]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Mr. Parsons, I understand that you would like to see this bill rushed through and that if that doesn't happen there will be delays in investments. I can't quote you exactly here. You also said there are currently no prospects for offshore wind in Newfoundland and Labrador.

Why not take the time to examine this piece of legislation properly? I know you've watched these hearings—or your officials have—and you've seen what has been brought forward by the fishing industry. Is there a need to rush it through? Which is it? Is it delaying investment or are there prospects for offshore wind? Which is it, Mr. Parsons?

[Andrew Parsons]

I don't believe I said there were no prospects. I said that right now there are no projects that have been approved. In fact, there has been interest in our wind from offshore organizations for more than a decade. We're finally at a point now where we feel we can move forward on that, but in order to do so we need a regulatory framework from which to operate. We feel this is the right regulatory framework for us. Certainly a lot of people—including my officials and me—have been a part of this. We would like to see this move forward.

Yes, I've had the FFAW reach out. In fact, we were supposed to meet and chat yesterday, but we had to cancel because of the storm. What I can tell you—and again, you know this full well—is that the fish harvesters have had to coexist with the oil and gas industry for decades now. We feel there's a coexistence that can happen here as well, and it will go through multiple environmental assessments.

[Clifford Small, Conservative, Coast of Bays—Central—Notre Dame, NL]

Thank you, Mr. Parsons.

You said it was expected that you would receive no bids on our offshore parcels in 2023 based on a declining interest in offshore oil and gas. In late January I helped six individuals here—I have their names on my screen—Cains, Murphy, Stevens, MacDonald, Pittman and so on, good Newfoundland and Labrador names—who were trying to get a work permit to go and work in India's offshore oil and gas, in fact in exploration, so the world of offshore oil and gas exploration and development is booming.

Do you agree with the federal government's approach and with Steven Guilbeault when he says that he wants to end the production of petroleum products?

[Andrew Parsons]

What I would say, and I think I've made it quite clear here during this testimony, is that this province supports oil and gas development. In fact, we support exploration. We will have multiple drilling opportunities this summer in our offshore. Talking about bids, in fact, any bit of research—and you could go to CBC on this—from 2020 shows that in that year there was actually a catastrophic drop in the number of bids.

[Clifford Small, Conservative, Coast of Bays—Central—Notre Dame, NL]

Thank you. I have one short question for your colleague, the minister from Nova Scotia.

I got a text this morning from a fish harvester in Cape Breton, who said the St. Anns Bank, I think it was, has a proposal for a 4,000-square-kilometre area to be used for the production of wind.

What do you have to say to those fish harvesters who will not be able to fish there? Do you feel they should be compensated? If so, who's going to compensate them? Is it going to be the taxpayers or the proprietors of offshore wind?

[Tory Rushton]

There's no application before this government for that to move forward. We don't have the amendments passed here in Bill C-49 to move forward, to even have that conversation. There's no application; there's nothing we're looking at as a government.

I believe the staff have certainly heard the concerns from those fishers, and we'll continue to have the conversations with that group.

[The Chair, Liberal, George Chahal]

Thank you.

We will now proceed to our final five-minute round of questioning.

Mr. Samson, you have five minutes. The floor is yours.

[Darrell Samson, Liberal, Sackville—Preston—Chezzetcook, NS]

Thank you, Chair.

Thank you to both of you for your testimony this afternoon. It's very much appreciated. You've been very specific in your answers, and I appreciate that. It's extremely important. It shows clearly that Nova Scotia and Newfoundland are strongly behind this bill, are supporting the bill, are part of the process and have played a role in this bill being what it is today. I thank you for that.

You know, the Atlantic Accord is supposed to be a nice story. It's supposed to be about the federal and provincial governments working together to help create more jobs, improve the economy and improve the lives of Atlantic Canadians, yet there's a sour taste in my mouth. I remember when the Conservative government—the Harper government—pretty well ripped up the Atlantic Accord. My colleague, Bill Casey, who was sitting on the benches with the Conservatives, was told he wouldn't be thrown out of caucus, but he was thrown out of caucus after voting against the budget to protect Atlantic Canadians.

Do you remember when that happened? I guess my first question is if you remember that.

Number two, why do you think the Conservatives don't want to support Atlantic Canadians? We're part of Canada, and we're a very important part of Canada.

[Andrew Parsons]

I'm not sure if this question is directed towards me or my colleague, but—

[Darrell Samson, Liberal, Sackville—Preston—Chezzetcook, NS]

It's probably more for Mr. Rushton, but go ahead.

[Andrew Parsons]

As a member of the Government of Newfoundland and Labrador, we want to move forward with the development of our offshore resources. We have a very strong history of joint management under multiple governments—certainly far before my time and it will be well beyond my time—when it comes to our offshore oil.

We want to move forward into a new industry now. We are supportive of this legislation and we would like to see it.... Again, I have no issue with debate, but we would certainly like to see it passed so that we're able to move forward in the developments to come.

[Darrell Samson, Liberal, Sackville—Preston—Chezzetcook, NS]

Thank you.

Mr. Rushton.

[Tory Rushton]

I would echo those comments. We have no issue whatsoever with questioning the amendments that are put forward. We have no issue with debate whatsoever.

For my department, working with our federal counterparts, it's been almost two years in the making, if not more, to get to this point.

We have people at our province right now willing to make investments. We look forward to the passage of this bill so that we can move forward with our green energy aspects.

[Darrell Samson, Liberal, Sackville—Preston—Chezzetcook, NS]

Thank you.

You know, supply and demand are key here. We have the supply in Atlantic Canada. We have more wind than anywhere else in the world, and the demand is high right now. The world is looking for clean energy, and we have the potential. There are one trillion dollars to be invested. Do you not think we should be taking advantage of that?

What will it do for Newfoundland and Labrador and Nova Scotia, when we become leaders in the world in this energy?

Mr. Rushton, I'll start with you.